A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

[pdf27]

24th November 1941
Lt Cmdr M.D. Wanklyn is awarded the Distinguished Service Order for “For gallant and distinguished services in successful submarine patrols in H.M.S. Regulus”

25th November 1941
In night exercises off the Yaeyama islands, Haguro succeeds in using her radar to hide inside a squall and approach to within 7,000 metres of the carriers Zuihō and Hiryū before simulating a torpedo launch. The first that the carriers are aware of the attack is when Haguro's starshells burst over them. Despite protests from both captains, the umpires rule that both ships have been sunk alongside at least one of the escorting destroyers.

27th November 1941
A batch of 1,500 MG39/41 guns are issued to the German Army for troop trials. While externally similar to the MG34, this uses a different roller-locked action which permits higher rates of fire while being much simpler and cheaper to manufacture.

29th November 1941
Gloster delivers the first Jet Reaper aircraft to the RAF. Planned production is 6 per week for the rest of the year, hopefully increasing in 1942 as the supply of engines improves.

 

[Starinski]

27th November 1941
A batch of 1,500 MG39/41 guns are issued to the German Army for troop trials. While externally similar to the MG34, this uses a different roller-locked action which permits higher rates of fire while being much simpler and cheaper to manufacture.

Damn.

 

[Scientist Shan]

24th November 1941
Lt Cmdr M.D. Wanklyn is awarded the Distinguished Service Order for “For gallant and distinguished services in successful submarine patrols in H.M.S. Regulus”

A future admiral IITL?

 

[naraht]

27th November 1941
A batch of 1,500 MG39/41 guns are issued to the German Army for troop trials. While externally similar to the MG34, this uses a different roller-locked action which permits higher rates of fire while being much simpler and cheaper to manufacture.

I think this is the same as OTL, the wikipedia page on the MG 42 says
" A limited run of about 1,500 of its immediate predecessor, the MG 39/41, was completed in 1941 and tested in combat trials."

More information on the MG 39 is available at https://web.archive.org/web/20130615093647/http://www.forgottenweapons.com/dead-end-mg-39-rh/

 

[pdf27]

Damn.

It's a slightly cruder version of the MG42 coming into service a month or two earlier. Not really a very big deal.

A future admiral IITL?

HMS Regulus is spotted by the Japanese submarine chasers No.13 and No.16 off Nakajima Island, where she has been sent to keep an eye out for the rumoured Japanese battleship Yamato. The two ships attack Regulus, but she is able to dive and get away from them before withdrawing via the Bungo channel.

He'd make a good candidate for Flag Officer, Submarines at the start of the 1960s, but so would a number of his contemporaries.

 

[naraht]

It's a slightly cruder version of the MG42 coming into service a month or two earlier. Not really a very big deal.



He'd make a good candidate for Flag Officer, Submarines at the start of the 1960s, but so would a number of his contemporaries.

So most of the subs are working out of Far East (Hong Kong). Has the Upholder that he served on iOTL been launched yet?

 

[Orcbuster]

So MG-42 Winds up being merely influential as opposed to infamous. Mg-34 will be the notorious one instead.

Also dunno how you make the MG-42 cruder. Not much you can change on the design.

 

[Rufus Shinra]

25th November 1941
In night exercises off the Yaeyama islands, Haguro succeeds in using her radar to hide inside a squall and approach to within 7,000 metres of the carriers Zuihō and Hiryū before simulating a torpedo launch. The first that the carriers are aware of the attack is when Haguro's starshells burst over them. Despite protests from both captains, the umpires rule that both ships have been sunk alongside at least one of the escorting destroyers.

This could have either good or very bad consequences for the IJN. If they come to believe carriers are very vulnerable to night battles and cruiser strikes, they'll get a very, very painful lesson later on, when the shots are not with starshells.

 

[What if]

Interesting to see some continuity with the HMS Regulus reappearing. Not sure how to interpret the Japanese Navel exercises. So jet aircraft might actually be deployed before the war is over. Also the 'stalemate' between Himmler and Goering should be considered disconcerting by both as speaks volumes of the amount of authority they lack and increases anarchy in Germany and hindered things like the equipping of the MG39/41.

 

[FasterThanRaito]

I figure the IJN will interpret the naval exercise as a warning that their ASW is lacking, as it had lead to significant losses in OTL

 

[Bernard Woolley]

In @ Wanklyn was sadly killed in 1942 while commanding HMS Upholder. Since Italy is not in the war ITTL he may survive.

 

[Driftless]

I figure the IJN will interpret the naval exercise as a warning that their ASW is lacking, as it had lead to significant losses in OTL

Maybe, maybe not. Another war game played out before Midway, where the Japanese "opfor" surprised and destroyed part of the Kido Butai, Yamamoto overruled the umpires. "Nothing to see here, move along...."

 

[Bregil]

Maybe, maybe not. Another war game played out before Midway, where the Japanese "opfor" surprised and destroyed part of the Kido Butai, Yamamoto overruled the umpires. "Nothing to see here, move along...."

Was that him? I know an admiral overruled the umpire to "refloat" at least one carrier but I didn't think that Yamamoto was directly involved in those wargames.

 

[imperial empire]

i might be wrong but the IJN admiral in question I think was at Matome Ugaki.
If I am right then I'm referencing "Sea of Thunder" by Evan Thomas.

 

[pdf27]

So most of the subs are working out of Far East (Hong Kong). Has the Upholder that he served on iOTL been launched yet?

Launched 8th July 1940, so essentially unaffected by the POD.

So MG-42 Winds up being merely influential as opposed to infamous. Mg-34 will be the notorious one instead.
Also dunno how you make the MG-42 cruder. Not much you can change on the design.

Fit & Finish, mostly - these are hand-fettled rather than full production items.

I figure the IJN will interpret the naval exercise as a warning that their ASW is lacking, as it had lead to significant losses in OTL

Hardly - Haguro is a heavy cruiser, and about the smallest ship capable of carrying a Japanese radar system.

The most likely impact is on Japanese night surface doctrine - telling them that Radar is basically a super-lookout, and they're likely to treat it as such.

In @ Wanklyn was sadly killed in 1942 while commanding HMS Upholder. Since Italy is not in the war ITTL he may survive.

Unless the Japanese join the war, he's overwhelmingly likely to do so. Short of someone having a fit of the stupids, WW2 is winding up already.

 

[What if]

Hardly - Haguro is a heavy cruiser, and about the smallest ship capable of carrying a Japanese radar system.snip
The most likely impact is on Japanese night surface doctrine - telling them that Radar is basically a super-lookout, and they're likely to treat it as such.

Forgive me if I am wrong (as I do have serve gaps in my knowledge of Japan) isn't this similar to OTL?

Unless the Japanese join the war, he's overwhelmingly likely to do so. Short of someone having a fit of the stupids, WW2 is winding up already.

Technically speaking that was what happened to Japan OTL but then the Japanese realised they were in a worse state OTL due to the additional embargoes.

 

[pdf27]

Forgive me if I am wrong (as I do have serve gaps in my knowledge of Japan) isn't this similar to OTL?

Rather earlier - so far as I can tell, Haguro got an air search radar fitted in June 1943 at Sasebo and a surface search set at Kure in 1944. The Japanese were a long way behind everyone else on radar - not being quite so close to going to war and with a few more resources to play with (no US embargo), radar development has got a minor push.

Technically speaking that was what happened to Japan OTL but then the Japanese realised they were in a worse state OTL due to the additional embargoes.

IOTL they had a much clearer path to victory - ITTL they've still got the US Pacific Fleet as OTL, but instead of just Prince of Wales and Repulse at Singapore they're facing Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, Warspite, Nelson, Rodney, King George V, Prince of Wales, Duke of York, Anson, Howe, Jean Bart, Richelieu, Ark Royal, Illustrious, Formidable, Victorious and Indomitable plus a shedload of cruisers, destroyers, etc. Note that these are very modern ships by comparison to most of the Japanese fleet - only Yamato (yet to commission), Natato and Mutsu aren't outclassed among the battleships, and while the Kido Butai has an edge it isn't all that great since the FAA has started to get better aircraft than OTL.

 

[fester]

Rather earlier - so far as I can tell, Haguro got an air search radar fitted in June 1943 at Sasebo and a surface search set at Kure in 1944. The Japanese were a long way behind everyone else on radar - not being quite so close to going to war and with a few more resources to play with (no US embargo), radar development has got a minor push.


IOTL they had a much clearer path to victory - ITTL they've still got the US Pacific Fleet as OTL, but instead of just Prince of Wales and Repulse at Singapore they're facing Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, Warspite, Nelson, Rodney, King George V, Prince of Wales, Duke of York, Anson, Howe, Jean Bart, Richelieu, Ark Royal, Illustrious, Formidable, Victorious and Indomitable plus a shedload of cruisers, destroyers, etc. Note that these are very modern ships by comparison to most of the Japanese fleet - only Yamato (yet to commission), Natato and Mutsu aren't outclassed among the battleships, and while the Kido Butai has an edge it isn't all that great since the FAA has started to get better aircraft than OTL.

And far more importantly for the KB, if they come south to play, they are playing in a dense colonial power maritime patrol aircraft zone; operational surprise is out the window and tactical surprise would be difficult to achieve. Throw in much harder to suppress land bases (better dispersal, radar warning nets, AA, pilots) and far more modern land based aircraft, the slight tactical superiority of the KB against the RN/FAA will be eaten up by every other advantage (including the ability of the RN to fall back to their oil supplies) present in SE Asia.

 

[naraht]

Some responses...

I believe that Wanklyn was a plankholder on the Upholder, but I agree that that is unlikely to survive even mild Butterflies.

Given the butterflies of not having to guard the convoys (which would help increase it) and the lack of the full two ocean act (which would decrease it), is the USN force at Pearl significantly more or less or equal to OTL?

 

[pdf27]

Pretty much the same - Essex for instance wasn't commissioned until December 1942 despite being ordered around the time of the POD. The only changes we'll be seeing so far actually joining the fleet will be a handful of escorts and probably the fleet concentrating a little more on the Pacific.