I am surprisingly thrilled to see that Kathryn seems to be winning at this point. I pity Catherine, but she has no right to be Queen any more and Maria clearly doesn't care enough to be in her country fighting for the throne Catherine seems to think is hers, so given the circumstances, I hope Kathryn wins. I'm surprised she hasn't already, to be honest, not with Maria still out of the country.
Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings
- Thread starter Cate13
- Start date
Aww, I don’t think Kathryn’s done to badly yet. I thinks she’s handling everything pretty well considering.
I’m glad you’re enjoying it
Though in Maria’s defense, she is trying to get to England, just France and Navarre are in the way.
I’m glad you’re enjoying it
Though in Maria’s defense, she is trying to get to England, just France and Navarre are in the way.
I had forgotten that bit... Okay, maybe she does care. But still. Long Live Queen Kathryn!
Well, in any case Katheryn is still the legitimate heiress and rightful Queen so is good who Maria is unable to arrive in EnglandI’m glad you’re enjoying it
Though in Maria’s defense, she is trying to get to England, just France and Navarre are in the way.
Section Twenty-Eight - 1541
“In Katies’ War, there were three other parties besides the titular Kathryn and Catherine. Three men who claimed the throne of England in their own name.
The first of the would-be kings was Edward Fitzroy, the only bastard son of King Arthur I. Lord Edward would gather but few supporters and would be captured by allies of Kathryn Tudor. She would order his execution on account of treason sometime in June of fifteen forty-one.
The second would-be King was Henry Pole, 1stBaron of Montagu. A descendent of both Edward III and Edward IV, Henry Pole appeared to think that the time of the Tudors had passed and with two women as the main claimants to the English throne, he had a chance to become king. He didn’t. Catherine of Aragon’s forces captured him and much of his family and they were all executed.
The last would-be King was Welshman by the name of John Owen ap Tudor Fychan, claiming to be the deceased John of Wales. John Owen was a distant relation of the royal Tudors. John Owen would gain a decent following and was the only claimant to outlive Katies’ War. After the Battle for London, the official conclusion of Katies’ War, Kathryn Tudor’s forces would continue south to face John Owen where he would be killed in battle.
In a traditionally male dominated century, these three men are barely footnotes in Katies’ War. What was it about Kathryn Tudor and Catherine of Aragon that allowed them to lead and rule as women?
In this thesis I will…”
“James V Stewart sat out most of Katies’ War feeling rather put out. For Prince Alexander was winning great renown as a soldier and tactician, and once again King James was in his younger brother’s shadow. Throughout the early part of fifteen forty-one James V continued to waffle: should he enter the war, should he enter the war on Kathryn Tudor’s side or on the side of Catherine of Aragon. The Scottish forces were marshalled, but if they were going anywhere, no one knew.
Then, in early in July of forty-one, several Scottish ships were attacked by Irish pirates, the Irish pirates having grown bold in the face of English’s inattention. James V was itching for a chance to prove himself, had already marshalled his armies, and had just been given an opening. It was a dangerous combination.
Scotland invaded Ireland on July twenty-fourth. The few English forces left in Ireland fell quickly. The Scottish forces would engage in combat with the Irish forces continuously over the next few months, and it must be said that they didn’t do worse than the English forces had been doing previously.
At the end of Katies’ War, after Kathryn Tudor had been crowned Queen, diplomats from England and Scotland began to meet to speak of Ireland. It was eventually agreed that Scotland could keep Ireland; Queen Kathryn is recorded to have remarked that Ireland was more trouble than it was worth.
For James V, Ireland would prove more trouble than it was worth. For, only nine months after conquering Ireland, James V would be killed during an official visit to Ireland. This ironically, would be the death nell of independent Ireland. For the assassination of King James V enraged the Scottish. They may not have been particularly fond of James V, but he was their king. If anyone was going to kill him, it would be them.
The regents for young King James VI would send the full might of the Scottish army against the Irish.”
The first of the would-be kings was Edward Fitzroy, the only bastard son of King Arthur I. Lord Edward would gather but few supporters and would be captured by allies of Kathryn Tudor. She would order his execution on account of treason sometime in June of fifteen forty-one.
The second would-be King was Henry Pole, 1stBaron of Montagu. A descendent of both Edward III and Edward IV, Henry Pole appeared to think that the time of the Tudors had passed and with two women as the main claimants to the English throne, he had a chance to become king. He didn’t. Catherine of Aragon’s forces captured him and much of his family and they were all executed.
The last would-be King was Welshman by the name of John Owen ap Tudor Fychan, claiming to be the deceased John of Wales. John Owen was a distant relation of the royal Tudors. John Owen would gain a decent following and was the only claimant to outlive Katies’ War. After the Battle for London, the official conclusion of Katies’ War, Kathryn Tudor’s forces would continue south to face John Owen where he would be killed in battle.
In a traditionally male dominated century, these three men are barely footnotes in Katies’ War. What was it about Kathryn Tudor and Catherine of Aragon that allowed them to lead and rule as women?
In this thesis I will…”
“The Three Kings of Katies’ War” Thesis Project by Women Studies doctoral candidate, Piper Nears
“James V Stewart sat out most of Katies’ War feeling rather put out. For Prince Alexander was winning great renown as a soldier and tactician, and once again King James was in his younger brother’s shadow. Throughout the early part of fifteen forty-one James V continued to waffle: should he enter the war, should he enter the war on Kathryn Tudor’s side or on the side of Catherine of Aragon. The Scottish forces were marshalled, but if they were going anywhere, no one knew.
Then, in early in July of forty-one, several Scottish ships were attacked by Irish pirates, the Irish pirates having grown bold in the face of English’s inattention. James V was itching for a chance to prove himself, had already marshalled his armies, and had just been given an opening. It was a dangerous combination.
Scotland invaded Ireland on July twenty-fourth. The few English forces left in Ireland fell quickly. The Scottish forces would engage in combat with the Irish forces continuously over the next few months, and it must be said that they didn’t do worse than the English forces had been doing previously.
At the end of Katies’ War, after Kathryn Tudor had been crowned Queen, diplomats from England and Scotland began to meet to speak of Ireland. It was eventually agreed that Scotland could keep Ireland; Queen Kathryn is recorded to have remarked that Ireland was more trouble than it was worth.
For James V, Ireland would prove more trouble than it was worth. For, only nine months after conquering Ireland, James V would be killed during an official visit to Ireland. This ironically, would be the death nell of independent Ireland. For the assassination of King James V enraged the Scottish. They may not have been particularly fond of James V, but he was their king. If anyone was going to kill him, it would be them.
The regents for young King James VI would send the full might of the Scottish army against the Irish.”
Rosa Kent, “Overshadowed, James V of Scotland”
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Please tell me that Catherine got to spend the rest of her life in Spain, rather happily being regent or a councilor for her family. Homegirl needs some happiness after this.
*snickers* Ah, that's funny. The Scots may think their king is a pain in their collective asses and want to repeatedly punch him in the face, but they're not about to take some Irish brat killing him. That's their job, their right, and no one else's. LOL
Some, but the conquest of Ireland wasn't super popular in England from what I can tell. For the most part, the attitude was good riddance.
I'm glad you think its funny. I stumbled upon the idea when I was trying to figure out what would motivate the Scots to invade Ireland, since I think they'd be better at it than the English.
A scottish Ireland?Or northern Ireland?
Now that would be a good irony.
I'm glad you are enjoying it, and I hope you'll like were it goes
Section Twenty-Nine - 1541
“Catherine of Aragon and her party would make it safely to Castile where she would dock at Santander. Her nephew Charles V would not be able to greet her as he was still embroiled in the border dispute between Castile and Aragon. Arrangement would be made to convey Catherine of Aragon to her daughter’s side.
She would arrive to find that Ferdinand had made peace with France and Navarre and would not be pursuing the English throne. He assured her that the cease fire was temporary, until the day which faithful Catholics would call for Maria Tudor. That day would never come.”
“England waited with baited breath to see how Kathryn Tudor would handle the religious question. For, the majority of England was still Catholic, but it had been the Awakeners that had backed her from the beginning. Now that she had the crown, which side would be rewarded?
Initially, it appeared that Kathryn Tudor would be supporting the Awakeners; her grandfather, Prince Henry perhaps the Awakener, was appointed Lord Chancellor. But then Sir Thomas More was appointed Lord Privy Seal. Sir Thomas More was a great opponent of the Awakeners. Next, Thomas Cromwell, newly made Duke of Suffolk and an Awakener, was made Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Appointments continued in this vein; one appointment for the Awakeners, and one for the Catholics. When questioned about the selections, Kathryn Tudor is recorded to have said, ‘I am to be Queen of ALL England. The Catholic and the Awakener alike.’
Ironically, Sir Thomas More who previously had been one of the great persecutors of the Awakeners, became one of her greatest backers in her policy of religious tolerance. Legend goes that she told him she greatly enjoyed Utopia and wish to see some of its practices in real life, namely religious acceptance.
While this policy was seen as madness at the time, it was probably what allowed her to keep her throne is the face of her various challengers. None of the parties, Catholics, Awakeners, or the growing population of protestants, were favored enough to gain power over the other nor were they unfavored enough to truly get riled up over it.”
“Interviewer: So which book is the movie actually based on? ‘Catherine and Kathryn’ by Everett Jacobs, from which the film gets its name, or Walter Owens’ ‘The Tragedy of Catherine of Aragon?’ Because I see plot points in the movie that can be found in both books.
Richard Gray: We drew inspiration from both books. Jacobs does a wonderful job of showing how similar both women were and Owens depiction of the collapse of their relationship is truly heartrending.
Interviewer: Do you feel the ending was oversimplified? That Kathryn Tudor won the war simply because she was willing to compromise on religion?
Richard Gray: No, I don’t. While there were a lot of complicated factors, the simple fact is Kathryn Tudor was more pragmatic than her grandmother.”
She would arrive to find that Ferdinand had made peace with France and Navarre and would not be pursuing the English throne. He assured her that the cease fire was temporary, until the day which faithful Catholics would call for Maria Tudor. That day would never come.”
Walter Owens, “The Tragedy of Catherine of Aragon”
“England waited with baited breath to see how Kathryn Tudor would handle the religious question. For, the majority of England was still Catholic, but it had been the Awakeners that had backed her from the beginning. Now that she had the crown, which side would be rewarded?
Initially, it appeared that Kathryn Tudor would be supporting the Awakeners; her grandfather, Prince Henry perhaps the Awakener, was appointed Lord Chancellor. But then Sir Thomas More was appointed Lord Privy Seal. Sir Thomas More was a great opponent of the Awakeners. Next, Thomas Cromwell, newly made Duke of Suffolk and an Awakener, was made Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Appointments continued in this vein; one appointment for the Awakeners, and one for the Catholics. When questioned about the selections, Kathryn Tudor is recorded to have said, ‘I am to be Queen of ALL England. The Catholic and the Awakener alike.’
Ironically, Sir Thomas More who previously had been one of the great persecutors of the Awakeners, became one of her greatest backers in her policy of religious tolerance. Legend goes that she told him she greatly enjoyed Utopia and wish to see some of its practices in real life, namely religious acceptance.
While this policy was seen as madness at the time, it was probably what allowed her to keep her throne is the face of her various challengers. None of the parties, Catholics, Awakeners, or the growing population of protestants, were favored enough to gain power over the other nor were they unfavored enough to truly get riled up over it.”
Vanessa Corey, “Glorianna”
“Interviewer: So which book is the movie actually based on? ‘Catherine and Kathryn’ by Everett Jacobs, from which the film gets its name, or Walter Owens’ ‘The Tragedy of Catherine of Aragon?’ Because I see plot points in the movie that can be found in both books.
Richard Gray: We drew inspiration from both books. Jacobs does a wonderful job of showing how similar both women were and Owens depiction of the collapse of their relationship is truly heartrending.
Interviewer: Do you feel the ending was oversimplified? That Kathryn Tudor won the war simply because she was willing to compromise on religion?
Richard Gray: No, I don’t. While there were a lot of complicated factors, the simple fact is Kathryn Tudor was more pragmatic than her grandmother.”
Interview with Richard Gray director of “Kathryn and Catherine”
This is great! I am so curious as to how Kathryn's reign will go. It sounds like she may have more success in balancing the religions in England than OTL Elizabeth did, though Elizabeth certainly tried, particularly in the early years of her reign. I particularly love how she balanced the various appointments between Catholics and Awakeners, and even managed to get Sir Thomas More on her side in the vein of religious tolerance. Excellent move on her part!
So amazing! Thanks for sharing @Cate13!
So amazing! Thanks for sharing @Cate13!
This is great! I am so curious as to how Kathryn's reign will go. It sounds like she may have more success in balancing the religions in England than OTL Elizabeth did, though Elizabeth certainly tried, particularly in the early years of her reign. I particularly love how she balanced the various appointments between Catholics and Awakeners, and even managed to get Sir Thomas More on her side in the vein of religious tolerance. Excellent move on her part!
So amazing! Thanks for sharing @Cate13!
Thanks!
Yeah, I was reading about Utopia and how the county in the book practiced religious tolerance, and I was like, Sir Thomas More? But I figured he'd be more open to the idea if no one was asking him to stop being Catholic.
Section Thirty - 1541
“The tragedy of Catherine of Aragon is this book! The Tragedy of Catherine of Aragon is an overblown, misogynist, drama fest. So, what that Catherine didn’t get along with her eldest granddaughter? The others adored her! So, what if she lost Katies’ War? She won others!
Catherine of Aragon was an amazing woman: she ruled as co-regent of England for almost two decades; she raised three children to adulthood, all of which were extremely well educated; she herself was one of the most educated women of her time; she was a significant influence upon her grandchildren, Maria Tudor’s children; and after her death she was canonized as a saint! A saint!
But all that is remembered of Catherine of Aragon is that she lost a war to her granddaughter; not her interest in academics and the education of women nor the wars she won. This book perpetuates the horrible chauvinist modern misconception of Catherine of Aragon.”
“Before traveling on to meet with her daughter, Catherine of Aragon stopped to speak with her sister-in-law, the elder Maria Tudor, Queen of Portugal. The two women had grown very close before Maria Tudor left England for Portugal. Catherine would stay in Portugal to witness the marriage of John Emmanuel, heir to the throne of Portugal, to Caterina Maria Romula di Lorenzo de Medici.
After leaving Portugal she would pay a visit to Aragon to meet her youngest brother, Ferdinand III, for the first time. She would also be present for Ferdinand’s marriage to Margaret Valois the youngest daughter of the recently deceased Francis I.”
“Catherine of Aragon would be reunited with her last surviving child late in the year fifteen forty-one. The younger Maria Tudor, Queen of the Romans, had not seen her mother for almost ten years and none of her children had met Catherine of Aragon.
Catherine of Aragon would spend much of the last few years of her life with her grandchildren. Of the four of Maria Tudor’s children to reach adulthood, the eldest daughter and the youngest son were particularly close to Catherine. Elisabeth Habsburg would inherit her grandmother’s religious fervor and would become a very influential Abbess.
But, this book is about the youngest, Arthur Habsburg.”
Am I forgiven @BlueFlowwer ?
Catherine of Aragon was an amazing woman: she ruled as co-regent of England for almost two decades; she raised three children to adulthood, all of which were extremely well educated; she herself was one of the most educated women of her time; she was a significant influence upon her grandchildren, Maria Tudor’s children; and after her death she was canonized as a saint! A saint!
But all that is remembered of Catherine of Aragon is that she lost a war to her granddaughter; not her interest in academics and the education of women nor the wars she won. This book perpetuates the horrible chauvinist modern misconception of Catherine of Aragon.”
Review of Walter Owens’ “The Tragedy of Catherine of Aragon”
“Before traveling on to meet with her daughter, Catherine of Aragon stopped to speak with her sister-in-law, the elder Maria Tudor, Queen of Portugal. The two women had grown very close before Maria Tudor left England for Portugal. Catherine would stay in Portugal to witness the marriage of John Emmanuel, heir to the throne of Portugal, to Caterina Maria Romula di Lorenzo de Medici.
After leaving Portugal she would pay a visit to Aragon to meet her youngest brother, Ferdinand III, for the first time. She would also be present for Ferdinand’s marriage to Margaret Valois the youngest daughter of the recently deceased Francis I.”
Ulysses Park, “Catherine of Aragon, the After England years”
“Catherine of Aragon would be reunited with her last surviving child late in the year fifteen forty-one. The younger Maria Tudor, Queen of the Romans, had not seen her mother for almost ten years and none of her children had met Catherine of Aragon.
Catherine of Aragon would spend much of the last few years of her life with her grandchildren. Of the four of Maria Tudor’s children to reach adulthood, the eldest daughter and the youngest son were particularly close to Catherine. Elisabeth Habsburg would inherit her grandmother’s religious fervor and would become a very influential Abbess.
But, this book is about the youngest, Arthur Habsburg.”
Oliver Gotham, “Arthur and the Throne of England, Scotland, and Ireland”
Am I forgiven @BlueFlowwer ?