The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World
- Thread starter WaterproofPotatoes
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The UK is indeed doing much better than OTL. Part of it is due to expanded prewar naval buildup, and partly because Britain had some ridiculously bad luck OTL. Hood and Courageous are still around; Royal Oak and Furious rather than her half-sister were sunk by U-boats in autumn 1939.
The Battle of Britain went better as they had additional time to prepare, and were able to inflict heavier losses against bombers in particular, in part due to having the time to solve the feed issues with the 20mm Hispano autocannon.
The Fleet Air Arm is now also accepting Sea Hurricanes and Seafires into service.
As for Germany and China, I won't spoil anything yet, but that is what Germany is hoping for- squeeze the Soviet Union from both ends, and force a surrender, then claim Lebensraum west of the Urals. The weak-willed British and Americans won't put up a fight, and the inferior Japanese will bow to their Han Chinese overlords; this humiliation to be made clear when all come to Welthauptstadt Germania to pay tribute.
That, however, is more easily said than done.
Thanks!
Germany did employ merchant raiders quite successfully in OTL; Pinguin was also the most successful- and the fate she met was similar. TTL they are deployed more extensively as surface raiding with warships is out of the question with a much larger Royal Navy opposing them
The Big Red One- The Beginning
Excerpts from the transcript of the History Channel documentary "Soviet Storm- The Eastern Front in WW2", released 2008.
OPERATION Barbarossa, the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, was scheduled to begin on May 16th, 1941 to allow enough time to marshal forces and allow the muddy Russian spring to pass so nothing could slow down their movement warfare. Over four million men and around four thousand tanks were initially committed. They were divided into five army groups, with distinct objectives, and given letter designations from north to south. These, and their commanders were:
Army Group A: Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb
Army Group B: Fedor von Bock
Army Group C: Gerd von Rundstedt
Army Group D: Maximilian Von Weichs
Army Group E: Wilhelm List
Army Group A was assigned to make a thrust northwards, and take the Baltic states and the port of Murmansk, which would not only prevent it from being used by the Soviets to obtain supplies, but to provide the Germans with an ice-free port far from the virtually-blockaded Baltic Sea. This Army Group was also assigned to assault St. Petersburg with elements from Army Group B.
Army Group B was assigned to drive towards Moscow, with several armies detached to make a thrust towards St. Petersburg. The remainder would assault Moscow from the north.
Army Group C was assigned to drive deep into the Russian heartland, and assault Moscow from the south.
Army Group D was assigned to Ukraine, with the coal-rich Donbass their big prize.
Army Group E was to push south and east, to take the oilfields of the Caucasus, particularly around Maikop and Grozny.
The forces were primarily German, although there were also Hungarian, Romanian and Bulgarian units participating, and volunteers from as far as the Netherlands in Waffen-SS divisions.
The objectives were widespread, as it was widely believed in the German military, and even by Hitler, that the Soviet Union was rotten from the inside, and the whole thing would come down with a swift kick. Franz Halder, one of the chief planners for the operation, believed taking Moscow was the most important objective, while Hitler himself was more concerned with the Caucasian oilfields. In the end, it was decided that there were enough men, and that the men and tanks were so vastly superior, that both objectives would be taken. Such a blow to resources and morale would surely result in Stalin's capitulation.
Or so they thought...
OPERATION Barbarossa, the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, was scheduled to begin on May 16th, 1941 to allow enough time to marshal forces and allow the muddy Russian spring to pass so nothing could slow down their movement warfare. Over four million men and around four thousand tanks were initially committed. They were divided into five army groups, with distinct objectives, and given letter designations from north to south. These, and their commanders were:
Army Group A: Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb
Army Group B: Fedor von Bock
Army Group C: Gerd von Rundstedt
Army Group D: Maximilian Von Weichs
Army Group E: Wilhelm List
Army Group A was assigned to make a thrust northwards, and take the Baltic states and the port of Murmansk, which would not only prevent it from being used by the Soviets to obtain supplies, but to provide the Germans with an ice-free port far from the virtually-blockaded Baltic Sea. This Army Group was also assigned to assault St. Petersburg with elements from Army Group B.
Army Group B was assigned to drive towards Moscow, with several armies detached to make a thrust towards St. Petersburg. The remainder would assault Moscow from the north.
Army Group C was assigned to drive deep into the Russian heartland, and assault Moscow from the south.
Army Group D was assigned to Ukraine, with the coal-rich Donbass their big prize.
Army Group E was to push south and east, to take the oilfields of the Caucasus, particularly around Maikop and Grozny.
The forces were primarily German, although there were also Hungarian, Romanian and Bulgarian units participating, and volunteers from as far as the Netherlands in Waffen-SS divisions.
The objectives were widespread, as it was widely believed in the German military, and even by Hitler, that the Soviet Union was rotten from the inside, and the whole thing would come down with a swift kick. Franz Halder, one of the chief planners for the operation, believed taking Moscow was the most important objective, while Hitler himself was more concerned with the Caucasian oilfields. In the end, it was decided that there were enough men, and that the men and tanks were so vastly superior, that both objectives would be taken. Such a blow to resources and morale would surely result in Stalin's capitulation.
Or so they thought...
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Something rather important here: Because there is no explictly ignoring the orders of Hitler here, Hitler is going to trust his generals more. Mind you, he is still a better judge of important objectives than many of them asthe caucasian oilfields are going to be far more important than moscow due to the simple fact that they have Oil, which germany lacks, while his generals had made the mistake of assuming that taking Moscow was like taking paris despite the fact over 2 frances of land was between moscow and the starting line.
Well spotted!
The generals, by necessity, have to stick closer to the official line as they are being watched closer- Hitler places the blame for botching Norway and taking too long in France on them. There is still a lot of debate within the Wehrmacht on how things should be done, and a lot of big personalities involved, like Erwin Rommel in Army Group A, however, and a lot that can happen.
The Saratoga Incident
Sure, there are some parallels...
German Type VIIc submarine U-94
May 4th, 1941
Daybreak
Southeast of Greenland, North Atlantic Ocean
"HERR KaLeun! You had better look at this!" were the most satisfying words that Kapitänleutnant Hans-Jürgen Backer could have possibly heard.
This hunt had not been a good one so far. They had been attacked by a Norwegian destroyer as they tried to break out into the Atlantic, an auspicious beginning. Amongst the crew, he had already earned an unflattering nickname- der Stachelschweinjäger (The Porcupine Hunter), as twice U-94 had attempted to attack a heavily escorted convoy, and twice she was driven off by British and Canadian ships and forced to crash dive and run.
U-94 was at periscope depth, a target at last in sight.
The crew were eager to clear out the room taken up by U-94's torpedoes, and this target was too juicy to pass up.
The unmistakable silhouette- two masts, two funnels close together, those long, lean lines- it was none other than HMS Hood. The reconnaissance photo confirmed it as Backer looked through the periscope.
It was daybreak and it was misty, no rising sun to silhouette U-94, just her unaware target. No Rising Sun or White Ensign flying from a destroyer either.
"Ready torpedoes, tubes 1,2,3 and 4. I want a spread; wait for my command"
He looked at the photo once again. He called over 1st Watch Officer Leutnant Piefke "There's no mistake. It's her"
"Nothing quite like her. Almost a shame we have to sink a ship like that" replied Piefke.
"Be ready to send a message out. If anything goes wrong...we need to finish what we started"
"Aye, sir"
"Fire"
---
There was one problem for the unfortunate U-94, and it was a big one. Her target was not HMS Hood. It was the American battlecruiser USS Saratoga.
Sister Sara, under the command of Rear Admiral Jesse B. "Oley" Oldendorf, was leading a Neutrality Preservation Task Force; their purpose to make sure that no marauding surface raiders or submarines would harass American shipping- the Stars and Stripes were a neutral flag.
Sister Sara was accompanied by the Aviation Light Cruiser USS Syren (CLV-1), the Omaha-class light cruiser Detroit (CL-8) and eight destroyers in the Benson and Gleaves classes.
As luck would have it on this misty morning, Saratoga's radar set was down for maintenance, and a flight of Bell F1L Airabonitas from Syren were up to try to perform reconnaissance the old fashioned way, as best as they could in the rotten visibility. That a squall the previous night had damaged the radar sets on some of the destroyers as well certainly didn't help. The task force had also fanned out to avoid the risk of collision.
Everything seemed more or less normal, until four torpedo wakes streamed towards Sara. One struck her directly on her bow, the other buried itself in her new torpedo bulge on her port side.
---
Bridge, USS Saratoga
"TORPEDO to port!" shouted a Seaman on watch, but it was already too late. It slammed into the bulge, and exploded.
"Goddamn it!" yelled Admiral Oldendorf. "Clem! How bad is it?" he asked Captain Clement P. Stewart
"Well, sir, it ain't good, but it's the hit in the bow that's got me worried. Sara's one tough ol' gal though, it'll take more than a couple Kraut fish to take her down" replied Captain Stewart.
A Damage Controlman made his report. Sara, although she had taken a nasty blow, was in no danger of sinking. The flooding in the bow was controlled and contained, and the torpedo bulge served its purpose on the port side. The slight list and sagging were controlled by counterflooding. Sara would live to fight another day. The bow damage was severe, however, and it was danger of shearing off if Saratoga were to sail forwards, even though her compartmentation contained the flooding. Fortunately for her, Sara had a turboelectric drive rather than geared turbines, so she could sail at full power ahead or astern.
"Those dumb bastards" said Oldendorf. "Syren's birds have a heading now, at least. We'll find them yet" He had a message for the task force to be sent out. Syren's aircraft were to scour the sea for the U-Boat, and vector the destroyers in.
---
North Atlantic Ocean
They were aided, inadvertently, by Backer himself. In his excitement, and eagerness to report his probable kill, he surfaced and sprinted to reposition to finish "Hood" off. He didn't realize what he was up against until an Airabonita made a strafing pass, raking U-94 with machine gun and cannon fire. Backer then ordered a crash dive, and tried to escape the now fully-alert task force. Worse for U-94, the sun now began to burn off the morning mist.
The destroyers, now that U-94's cover was blown, set about their work. Two, USS Hilary P. Jones (DD-427) and Kearny (DD-432) picked up U-94 on their sonar sets, while Syren launched her flight of Vought SB2U Vindicators, equipped with depth charges.
Jones began her depth charge run, as U-94's crew braced themselves.
After a short chase that seemed much longer for both U-94 and Jones, a depth charge exploded near U-94's bow, causing her to take on water, and she began to lose speed and dive deeper.
Backer and his crew managed to save their submarine by blowing the bow tanks, but this hope was in vain. This maneuver overcorrected, and U-94 began to rise fast, bow first, briefly breaking the surface as Jones circled around for another pass. Jones had radioed U-94's last known position back to the task force, and a Vindicator from Syren dropped her charges shortly after U-94 began another crash dive.
The explosion and debris field confirmed the kill. U-94 was sunk.
Saratoga's turboelectric drive engaged in reverse and she sailed stern-first towards New York Navy Yard for repairs accompanied by her task force. Their part of the fight was over for now.
An attack like this made things far more complicated, however. This was far from over...
German Type VIIc submarine U-94
May 4th, 1941
Daybreak
Southeast of Greenland, North Atlantic Ocean
"HERR KaLeun! You had better look at this!" were the most satisfying words that Kapitänleutnant Hans-Jürgen Backer could have possibly heard.
This hunt had not been a good one so far. They had been attacked by a Norwegian destroyer as they tried to break out into the Atlantic, an auspicious beginning. Amongst the crew, he had already earned an unflattering nickname- der Stachelschweinjäger (The Porcupine Hunter), as twice U-94 had attempted to attack a heavily escorted convoy, and twice she was driven off by British and Canadian ships and forced to crash dive and run.
U-94 was at periscope depth, a target at last in sight.
The crew were eager to clear out the room taken up by U-94's torpedoes, and this target was too juicy to pass up.
The unmistakable silhouette- two masts, two funnels close together, those long, lean lines- it was none other than HMS Hood. The reconnaissance photo confirmed it as Backer looked through the periscope.
It was daybreak and it was misty, no rising sun to silhouette U-94, just her unaware target. No Rising Sun or White Ensign flying from a destroyer either.
"Ready torpedoes, tubes 1,2,3 and 4. I want a spread; wait for my command"
He looked at the photo once again. He called over 1st Watch Officer Leutnant Piefke "There's no mistake. It's her"
"Nothing quite like her. Almost a shame we have to sink a ship like that" replied Piefke.
"Be ready to send a message out. If anything goes wrong...we need to finish what we started"
"Aye, sir"
"Fire"
---
There was one problem for the unfortunate U-94, and it was a big one. Her target was not HMS Hood. It was the American battlecruiser USS Saratoga.
Sister Sara, under the command of Rear Admiral Jesse B. "Oley" Oldendorf, was leading a Neutrality Preservation Task Force; their purpose to make sure that no marauding surface raiders or submarines would harass American shipping- the Stars and Stripes were a neutral flag.
Sister Sara was accompanied by the Aviation Light Cruiser USS Syren (CLV-1), the Omaha-class light cruiser Detroit (CL-8) and eight destroyers in the Benson and Gleaves classes.
As luck would have it on this misty morning, Saratoga's radar set was down for maintenance, and a flight of Bell F1L Airabonitas from Syren were up to try to perform reconnaissance the old fashioned way, as best as they could in the rotten visibility. That a squall the previous night had damaged the radar sets on some of the destroyers as well certainly didn't help. The task force had also fanned out to avoid the risk of collision.
Everything seemed more or less normal, until four torpedo wakes streamed towards Sara. One struck her directly on her bow, the other buried itself in her new torpedo bulge on her port side.
---
Bridge, USS Saratoga
"TORPEDO to port!" shouted a Seaman on watch, but it was already too late. It slammed into the bulge, and exploded.
"Goddamn it!" yelled Admiral Oldendorf. "Clem! How bad is it?" he asked Captain Clement P. Stewart
"Well, sir, it ain't good, but it's the hit in the bow that's got me worried. Sara's one tough ol' gal though, it'll take more than a couple Kraut fish to take her down" replied Captain Stewart.
A Damage Controlman made his report. Sara, although she had taken a nasty blow, was in no danger of sinking. The flooding in the bow was controlled and contained, and the torpedo bulge served its purpose on the port side. The slight list and sagging were controlled by counterflooding. Sara would live to fight another day. The bow damage was severe, however, and it was danger of shearing off if Saratoga were to sail forwards, even though her compartmentation contained the flooding. Fortunately for her, Sara had a turboelectric drive rather than geared turbines, so she could sail at full power ahead or astern.
"Those dumb bastards" said Oldendorf. "Syren's birds have a heading now, at least. We'll find them yet" He had a message for the task force to be sent out. Syren's aircraft were to scour the sea for the U-Boat, and vector the destroyers in.
---
North Atlantic Ocean
They were aided, inadvertently, by Backer himself. In his excitement, and eagerness to report his probable kill, he surfaced and sprinted to reposition to finish "Hood" off. He didn't realize what he was up against until an Airabonita made a strafing pass, raking U-94 with machine gun and cannon fire. Backer then ordered a crash dive, and tried to escape the now fully-alert task force. Worse for U-94, the sun now began to burn off the morning mist.
The destroyers, now that U-94's cover was blown, set about their work. Two, USS Hilary P. Jones (DD-427) and Kearny (DD-432) picked up U-94 on their sonar sets, while Syren launched her flight of Vought SB2U Vindicators, equipped with depth charges.
Jones began her depth charge run, as U-94's crew braced themselves.
After a short chase that seemed much longer for both U-94 and Jones, a depth charge exploded near U-94's bow, causing her to take on water, and she began to lose speed and dive deeper.
Backer and his crew managed to save their submarine by blowing the bow tanks, but this hope was in vain. This maneuver overcorrected, and U-94 began to rise fast, bow first, briefly breaking the surface as Jones circled around for another pass. Jones had radioed U-94's last known position back to the task force, and a Vindicator from Syren dropped her charges shortly after U-94 began another crash dive.
The explosion and debris field confirmed the kill. U-94 was sunk.
Saratoga's turboelectric drive engaged in reverse and she sailed stern-first towards New York Navy Yard for repairs accompanied by her task force. Their part of the fight was over for now.
An attack like this made things far more complicated, however. This was far from over...
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Sure, there are some parallels...
There was one problem for the unfortunate U-94, and it was a big one. Her target was not HMS Hood. It was the American battlecruiser USS Saratoga.
Sister Sara, under the command of Rear Admiral Jesse B. "Oley" Oldendorf, was leading a Neutrality Preservation Task Force; their purpose to make sure that no marauding surface raiders or submarines would harass American shipping- the Stars and Stripes were a neutral flag.
An attack like this made things far more complicated, however. This was far from over...
Oh, that is awesomeness. Accidents happen, but what a whoops.
There is another big problem... remember how I mentioned how Hood's appearance changed pretty drastically (block superstructure, more sheer and flare, and two funnels trunked into one)?
It seems very likely that the recognition photo that U-94 was issued was out of date- pre 1935, but visibility was awful and with the U-Boat sunk with all hands, we cannot know what they were thinking.
Then, there's also the problem that Hood just torpedoed a German raider off Hong Kong the week prior. There's no way she'd be able to be in the North Atlantic a week later, accompanied by destroyers which have American aircraft with them for some reason...
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Good thing that Sister Sara got the rebuild.
Huh. Detroit is in the Atlantic fleet? Interesting... Guess that means Raleigh is (was?) with Lex.
Small typo there at the end of the first sentence.
Also, combat viability of hybrids made. With Airabonita & Vindicator. What a way divergences go.
Or it might be said that the Vindicators Vindicated that design. *rimshot*
Huh. Detroit is in the Atlantic fleet? Interesting... Guess that means Raleigh is (was?) with Lex.
Small typo there at the end of the first sentence.
Also, combat viability of hybrids made. With Airabonita & Vindicator. What a way divergences go.
Or it might be said that the Vindicators Vindicated that design. *rimshot*
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Indeed it was! Incidentally, it was her rebuild that provided enough of of case for the faction in the RN that wanted her rebuilt to win the year after- Lady Lex and Sister Sara got theirs starting in 1934, Hood in 1935.
Indeed she is, some things are a bit shuffled from OTL- hence King and Kimmel are the top dogs in the Pacific while Nimitz and Halsey are in charge of Atlantic operations, and Leahy is Chairman of the Joint Chiefs as in OTL.
Good thing Larry Bell was prevented from deleting the turbocharger from the design, that really would have held it back!
Funny though that a *literal* Vindicator vindicates the CLV concept
(EDIT: Ninja'd me there!)Originally, OTL, Saratoga was laid down as a battlecruiser and converted into an aircraft carrier.
TTL, she was completed as a battlecruiser, as was Lexington. Their sisters Constellation and Ranger were completed as carriers. Constitution and United States were scrapped; and the OTL 1934 Ranger carries the name USS United States TTL.
Their dimensions are similar when completed: 860'x104' for Hood, 874'x105' for Saratoga
With bad visibility, and with bad intelligence, it wouldn't be that hard to mistake one for the other.
Hood:
Sara:
Starting in 1934, Lex and Sara were taken in for a rebuild which added torpedo bulges, 10' on each side for +20' beam overall, and her lattice masts were replaced with a solid foremast/superstructure and pole-type mainmast.
Hood's 1935 reconstruction involved her being lengthened 51', her foremast and superstructure being razed and replaced with a block superstructure, more sheer and flare on her new bow, and her twin funnels trunked into a single slab-sided one. Her beam is unchanged as her crushing-tube torpedo defence system is hard to upgrade; her internal torpedo belt is thickened.
Pre-reconstruction Hood and post-reconstruction Sara would look even more similar.
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The Saratoga Incident- The Aftermath
Uncle Sam was not exactly pleased about it...
"When you see a rattlesnake poised to strike you do not wait until he has struck before you crush him. These Nazi submarines and raiders are the rattlesnakes of the Atlantic.
They are a menace to the free pathways of the high seas. They are a challenge to our sovereignty. They hammer at our most precious rights when they attack ships of the American flag-symbols of our independence, our freedom, our very life." -President Franklin Delano Roosevelt
---
Manila, Philippines
May 5th, 1941
9:16 AM
YESTERDAY'S shocking events reached the Philippines, causing an especially passionate meeting of the Manila Gang.
The "Gang"'s numbers had been swelled in recent months. In addition to Krueger, who had been promoted to Lieutenant General in October 1940, they were joined by Major General Joseph Stilwell, well connected with the "China Lobby" and able to both speak and write Chinese and fresh off a stint as military attache at the American embassy in China. The air defences of the Philippines were coordinated by Brigadier General Claire Chennault, and the armour by a hard-driving and ambitious tank jockey, Brigadier General George S. Patton. The Gang was rounded out by founding members Admiral Ernest King, Lieutenant General Richard Sutherland and Colonel Charles Willoughby, with MacArthur in command of all but King.
These men, while undeniably excellent soldiers and (well, maybe except for Willoughby) experts in their chosen branches of warfare, were nonetheless prone to raucous disagreements. With this many hard men with strong personalities, it was bound to happen. With nicknames like "Vinegar Joe" and at least two of them taking pride in being the meanest son-of-a-bitch in their branch of service, it wasn't exactly a surprise.
The subject of today's meeting was the German attack on USS Saratoga. Outrage was widespread in the USA. To attack a battlecruiser and then to claim that the U-Boat crew mistook her for Hood, which was half the world away was beyond reason. Roosevelt made an impassioned speech, and more importantly, imposed a shoot-on-sight order in the Atlantic. Every German warship, sub and raider was fair game.
"It's a goddamn outrage!" roared King. "You had damn well better believe it was no accident! These Krauts think we won't put up a fight; that we'll just let them smack us around- bullshit! This isn't about England, or rules of engagement. It's a planned, deliberate effort to humiliate us! My ass they thought she was Hood. Now, Caro Maru, you could make a case looking for her looking like a Jap battlewagon, but Sara? Bullshit!"
"Are you watching, folks?" quipped MacArthur "This is the one and only time you'll see Ernie King only just as angry as everybody else"
"While you ground-pounders are busy laughing it up" said King "The Navy will be diverting considerable resources to the Atlantic. So you'd better be ready if the situation gets any worse here in our island paradise."
"Chennault, if you would please brief us on the situation in the air?" asked MacArthur.
"If you can get me the planes, I'll train you the pilots. Airacobras, I'd prefer, the maintenance on the turbochargers be damned, I don't care if the pilots and mechanics are American, Filipino or whoever; what we have is good, but we need more. I'll take Warhawks too, whatever you can get me. The biggest threat, if you ask me are the IJN's Zeroes. They're not quite as fast as a Chinese National Air Force Bf-109 but they can turn circles around it. That's not going to be easy to deal with."
The comparison with China set off a new discussion- what if the German influence on China was stronger than it had first seemed?
"If you'll look at this chart" said Willoughby. "The Japanese line is being pushed back farther towards their puppet states, Manchukuo and Mengjiang. Whether they have another six weeks or six months left in them, I can't tell you, but they don't have a lot of popular support. The only reason any locals are sticking their necks out for these colonies is because they're afraid the'll get robbed blind when the Chinese come to take back what's theirs. The Japanese have to ship in everything they need, and that can't be cheap."
"What are you on about?" said Sutherland "What happens when the Japanese get pushed out?"
"A lot of things can happen. Or nothing can happen. But we don't know which" replied Willoughby.
"There he is, the intelligence officer of the century, Sir Charles Willoughby" said a clearly annoyed Sutherland.
"Well, if you'd let me finish" shot back Willoughby "The situation could be favourable; business as usual, more or less, with a richer China. Or, they have a bargaining chip, and an aggressive German cadre advising them, and things could go very differently"
Sutherland nodded. "I get you. But why would the Germans take such an... indirect route of going about it?"
"I'll say it" said Patton. "The Krauts can't get past our Navy. But we're not here for the good of our health. We do a lot of business in China and there's a lot more of them then us. The question is, are the Krauts going to try to get our Chinese pals to kick us out?"
"I'll tell you this much" said Stilwell "It's going to take more than Henry Luce* putting out some pretty pictures to convince a lot of people that China is worth sticking our necks out for. And if this thing with the Krauts goes hot in a big way, then this is going to come back on us. In my opinion now, China is a bigger problem for us than Japan. Sure, they don't have a navy to speak of today, but we can't rule anything out. You must remember, China has a long history, and they're still around no matter what the rest of the world throws at them. Now that the Nazis have their ear, this could go badly and fast."
"It seems" opined the normally quiet Krueger "That the Chinese have made a very poor choice of friends. And, for that matter, a very poor choice of enemies. We know that running China is a big job, and a job that's bigger than Chiang at the moment. If- and I'm just putting it out there- things start going sour over there, is there anybody we can work with?"
"One or two" said Stilwell. "Wu Peifu is the kind of guy we can work with- he even hung a picture of George Washington in his office. He's a former warlord, but in China, good luck finding someone who isn't. But what really says something is that Chiang dragged him out of retirement to fight the Reds."
MacArthur's interest was piqued. "You think you can get us in contact with this Wu?" he asked, clearly plotting something as he chewed on his corncob pipe.
"It'll be hard" replied Stilwell "He operates out of the Northwest. That's no accident, Chiang wants him isolated. Wu also can't stand Du, the party boss who runs Shanghai like Al Capone; and the feeling is mutual. If he has any business to do in Shanghai or Nanking, he'll send his second in command, Sun Chuanfang."
"I could try to arrang-" offered Willoughby before being interrupted.
"Dear God, no" groaned Stilwell. "Leave this one to me. General MacArthur, if I could have a word with you in private, at your convenience?"
"Absolutely" replied MacArthur. "Boys, we're going to show 'em just what good old American ingenuity can do"
---
*Publisher of Life magazine, and an OTL friend of Chaing and especially Madame Chiang Kai-Shek.
"When you see a rattlesnake poised to strike you do not wait until he has struck before you crush him. These Nazi submarines and raiders are the rattlesnakes of the Atlantic.
They are a menace to the free pathways of the high seas. They are a challenge to our sovereignty. They hammer at our most precious rights when they attack ships of the American flag-symbols of our independence, our freedom, our very life." -President Franklin Delano Roosevelt
---
Manila, Philippines
May 5th, 1941
9:16 AM
YESTERDAY'S shocking events reached the Philippines, causing an especially passionate meeting of the Manila Gang.
The "Gang"'s numbers had been swelled in recent months. In addition to Krueger, who had been promoted to Lieutenant General in October 1940, they were joined by Major General Joseph Stilwell, well connected with the "China Lobby" and able to both speak and write Chinese and fresh off a stint as military attache at the American embassy in China. The air defences of the Philippines were coordinated by Brigadier General Claire Chennault, and the armour by a hard-driving and ambitious tank jockey, Brigadier General George S. Patton. The Gang was rounded out by founding members Admiral Ernest King, Lieutenant General Richard Sutherland and Colonel Charles Willoughby, with MacArthur in command of all but King.
These men, while undeniably excellent soldiers and (well, maybe except for Willoughby) experts in their chosen branches of warfare, were nonetheless prone to raucous disagreements. With this many hard men with strong personalities, it was bound to happen. With nicknames like "Vinegar Joe" and at least two of them taking pride in being the meanest son-of-a-bitch in their branch of service, it wasn't exactly a surprise.
The subject of today's meeting was the German attack on USS Saratoga. Outrage was widespread in the USA. To attack a battlecruiser and then to claim that the U-Boat crew mistook her for Hood, which was half the world away was beyond reason. Roosevelt made an impassioned speech, and more importantly, imposed a shoot-on-sight order in the Atlantic. Every German warship, sub and raider was fair game.
"It's a goddamn outrage!" roared King. "You had damn well better believe it was no accident! These Krauts think we won't put up a fight; that we'll just let them smack us around- bullshit! This isn't about England, or rules of engagement. It's a planned, deliberate effort to humiliate us! My ass they thought she was Hood. Now, Caro Maru, you could make a case looking for her looking like a Jap battlewagon, but Sara? Bullshit!"
"Are you watching, folks?" quipped MacArthur "This is the one and only time you'll see Ernie King only just as angry as everybody else"
"While you ground-pounders are busy laughing it up" said King "The Navy will be diverting considerable resources to the Atlantic. So you'd better be ready if the situation gets any worse here in our island paradise."
"Chennault, if you would please brief us on the situation in the air?" asked MacArthur.
"If you can get me the planes, I'll train you the pilots. Airacobras, I'd prefer, the maintenance on the turbochargers be damned, I don't care if the pilots and mechanics are American, Filipino or whoever; what we have is good, but we need more. I'll take Warhawks too, whatever you can get me. The biggest threat, if you ask me are the IJN's Zeroes. They're not quite as fast as a Chinese National Air Force Bf-109 but they can turn circles around it. That's not going to be easy to deal with."
The comparison with China set off a new discussion- what if the German influence on China was stronger than it had first seemed?
"If you'll look at this chart" said Willoughby. "The Japanese line is being pushed back farther towards their puppet states, Manchukuo and Mengjiang. Whether they have another six weeks or six months left in them, I can't tell you, but they don't have a lot of popular support. The only reason any locals are sticking their necks out for these colonies is because they're afraid the'll get robbed blind when the Chinese come to take back what's theirs. The Japanese have to ship in everything they need, and that can't be cheap."
"What are you on about?" said Sutherland "What happens when the Japanese get pushed out?"
"A lot of things can happen. Or nothing can happen. But we don't know which" replied Willoughby.
"There he is, the intelligence officer of the century, Sir Charles Willoughby" said a clearly annoyed Sutherland.
"Well, if you'd let me finish" shot back Willoughby "The situation could be favourable; business as usual, more or less, with a richer China. Or, they have a bargaining chip, and an aggressive German cadre advising them, and things could go very differently"
Sutherland nodded. "I get you. But why would the Germans take such an... indirect route of going about it?"
"I'll say it" said Patton. "The Krauts can't get past our Navy. But we're not here for the good of our health. We do a lot of business in China and there's a lot more of them then us. The question is, are the Krauts going to try to get our Chinese pals to kick us out?"
"I'll tell you this much" said Stilwell "It's going to take more than Henry Luce* putting out some pretty pictures to convince a lot of people that China is worth sticking our necks out for. And if this thing with the Krauts goes hot in a big way, then this is going to come back on us. In my opinion now, China is a bigger problem for us than Japan. Sure, they don't have a navy to speak of today, but we can't rule anything out. You must remember, China has a long history, and they're still around no matter what the rest of the world throws at them. Now that the Nazis have their ear, this could go badly and fast."
"It seems" opined the normally quiet Krueger "That the Chinese have made a very poor choice of friends. And, for that matter, a very poor choice of enemies. We know that running China is a big job, and a job that's bigger than Chiang at the moment. If- and I'm just putting it out there- things start going sour over there, is there anybody we can work with?"
"One or two" said Stilwell. "Wu Peifu is the kind of guy we can work with- he even hung a picture of George Washington in his office. He's a former warlord, but in China, good luck finding someone who isn't. But what really says something is that Chiang dragged him out of retirement to fight the Reds."
MacArthur's interest was piqued. "You think you can get us in contact with this Wu?" he asked, clearly plotting something as he chewed on his corncob pipe.
"It'll be hard" replied Stilwell "He operates out of the Northwest. That's no accident, Chiang wants him isolated. Wu also can't stand Du, the party boss who runs Shanghai like Al Capone; and the feeling is mutual. If he has any business to do in Shanghai or Nanking, he'll send his second in command, Sun Chuanfang."
"I could try to arrang-" offered Willoughby before being interrupted.
"Dear God, no" groaned Stilwell. "Leave this one to me. General MacArthur, if I could have a word with you in private, at your convenience?"
"Absolutely" replied MacArthur. "Boys, we're going to show 'em just what good old American ingenuity can do"
---
*Publisher of Life magazine, and an OTL friend of Chaing and especially Madame Chiang Kai-Shek.
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Yes, it’s the same at I expected, the reason is not strong enough for the parliament to pass the war. It caused outrage but that’s it, now we have to wait is Chang do something really really stupid.
One thing bothers me that, China is not kind of supremacy like otl Japan Yamato race supremacy and They’re not even Fascist. I make terrible points there, all I want to say is I feel bad for Chinese, can hold myself think China is a second Italy.
One thing bothers me that, China is not kind of supremacy like otl Japan Yamato race supremacy and They’re not even Fascist. I make terrible points there, all I want to say is I feel bad for Chinese, can hold myself think China is a second Italy.
It's certainly a huge outrage, and a mistake that means Germany will have to be exceptionally careful to avoid repeating.
China is a tough case- warlordism hasn't been squashed, and the alliance with Germany isn't based on a deeply-rooted commitment to National Socialism; it's a marriage of convenience. However, you might be surprised what happens in China- things might not be as bad as they look now. Remember, China is very big, and very old, and has been through a lot, but survives.
Ah, forgot to mention- Japan and Korea: The situation is much better OTL; the official position is that Japanese and Koreans are a "fraternal union of Joeson peoples"; and of the same race. No forced labour or name changes. Many Koreans are fluent in both languages, and can serve in the IJN or, more typically, the IJA under their Korean names.
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Ok, this made me laugh. Good one.
Originally, OTL, Saratoga was laid down as a battlecruiser and converted into an aircraft carrier.
TTL, she was completed as a battlecruiser, as was Lexington. Their sisters Constellation and Ranger were completed as carriers. Constitution and United States were scrapped; and the OTL 1934 Ranger carries the name USS United States TTL.
Their dimensions are similar when completed: 860'x104' for Hood, 874'x105' for Saratoga
With bad visibility, and with bad intelligence, it wouldn't be that hard to mistake one for the other.
Hood:
*snip*
Pre-reconstruction Hood and post-reconstruction Sara would look even more similar.
And for a better comparison, here's a line drawing I found that better proves the point.
This is close enough for our purposes. Not necessarily official, but similar enough that mistakes could be made. Note the forward mast (not a tripod, but close enough), a catapult on the quarterdeck, twin masts, rear shorter, twin funnels (spacing is different, but depending on angle...)
Also, the reconstructed battlecruisers would likely be the first US capital ships with the 5"/38 gun system, too.
Also, not my work, as all I did was change the name (was going to, but found this before I needed to!) HERE is the original I took it from (which includes a Shipbucket picture, of course uncredited...
Tasty! If I had the patience I'd Shipbucket my modified Hood!
And of course when I said tripod foremast, I meant solid foremast
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