Its unlikely to survive I know but a Brunel gauge 4-6-0 would have been a magnificent beast
Top Locomotives Never Built
- Thread starter Duke Andrew of Dank
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Its unlikely to survive I know but a Brunel gauge 4-6-0 would have been a magnificent beast
There were designs for 2-8-4 and 4-8-2 but the big problem for British designers was always the loading gauge which is the maximum height width and length of the rolling stock. Basically the problem was Britain was the first to build a rail network by 1850 most of the current network was either built or being built compared to most countries which were barely started.
1850 loco technology meant tiny 2-4-0 or 0-6-0 locos. Britain's designers have always struggled to get everything in to a small package it's why compounding, power stoking and feed water heaters never really took off because they needed extra room. Even something as simple and efficient as a new chimney design like a KylChap or Giesel could cause problems with the gauge.
By size and weight British locos were very good often having power to weight ratios comparable to the best but they generally needed high quality coal and expert hand firing to make up for restricted grate sizes and restricted cylinder sizes. No point having big outside cylinders if they won't fit through a tunnel.
Would it hit enough large cities to replace HS2? Under the current plan Phase 1 connects the largest and second largest cities, Phase 2 would add another three of the country's seven largest cities, and the mooted Phase 3—which I doubt we'll ever see—would link up the North East and Scotland.
Any interest in nukes here? An atomic train was seriously considered at least in the USA and USSR, ex. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/io9.gizmodo.com/the-days-of-atomic-locomotives-in-america-1564623650/amp .
That's the problem with the GCR, the London Extension runs through nowhere and the loading gauge isn't quite as generous as many people think (although a lot better than other lines) and lost its purpose as freight declined.
Mutters darkly about the Hawksworth Pacific, although I have seen one book that claimed it would be a Baltic.
Devvy
Donor
As Iain says, the loading gauge is better than much of the British network (although that's not exactly hard!), but it's hardly huge. Even so, anything improvement is better, and it would allow cross-Channel freight with Hicube containers or the like easy access to the north with little gauge works to cross London.
As a passenger route, it's both good and bad. Good in that as it serves few places en route, it could potentially be a decent high speed trunk route, although not TGV speeds due to curves. Bad in that it has no actual access to London bar running alongside suburban services in to Marylebone or Paddington. Ups and downs. I'll cover in more detail in 1208 redux TL when I get to it
How long do you expect the electrification of the line to take?
As I wrote in an earlier post it's nearly 106 miles from Liverpool Exchange to Goole Docks by the shortest route. However, the shortest route is by the line that avoids Wigan Walgate station. Including Wigan Walgate would add another 3.5 miles. There are about 4.5 miles of goods branches around Liverpool that would have to be included as this is primarily a freight scheme, 3.75 miles of branches around Goole what would probably be included and as it is only 1.5 miles long the L&YR branch in to Dewsbury would be included. That's 119.25 route miles, which I will round up to 120 route miles.
Assuming that the above is at least double track that's at least 240 single track miles not including sidings.
In 1919 the North Eastern Railway did a study for the electrification of the East Coast Main line from York to Newcastle plus the line from Northallerton to Ferryhill via Stockton using 1,500V DC overhead - the same system you are using here. It didn't give the number of route miles, but it's 110-115 and IIRC 393 miles of track were to be electrified. In 1919 it was estimated that it would take 2-3 years to implement the scheme. However, by 1921 the estimated time was 5 years because it had been split into two phases. Phase One was Newcastle to Darlington and Phase Two was the rest.
The 1919 estimate requires the electrification of nearly 40 route miles a year and the 1921 estimate requires an average of 20-25 route miles a year to be electrified. If the L&YR electrified the latter rate the Liverpool - Goole scheme would be completed by the end of 1912.
That would leave time to add another 40-50 route miles by the end of 1914. That is more than enough to include Crow Nest Junction to Manchester Victoria to allow electric working between Liverpool and Manchester AND Manchester Victoria to Castleton to allow electric working from Manchester to Goole AND Milner Royd Junction-Halifax-Bradford Exchange.
That's a pretty good time scale you have come up with I can't fault it. If the whole Trans Pennine route is electrified I wonder if that will gee up the North Eastern to get it's electrification scheme started. There was a fair bit of rivalry between the two companies who both considered themselves as the leading technology company.
I feel an electric Express loco coming on.
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I was going to mention that in my last email, but I had to go to work.That's a pretty good time scale you have come up with I can't fault it. If the whole Trans Pennine route is electrified I wonder if that will gee up the North Eastern to get it's electrification scheme started. There was a fair bit of rivalry between the two companies who both considered themselves as the leading technology company.
I feel an electric Express loco coming on.
It's very likely that the L&YR's example would lead to the NER electrifying more lines before 1914.
IOTL the NER planned and implemented it's Tyneside Suburban and Quayside electrification schemes at the same time the L&YR was planning and implementing it's Liverpool to Soutport scheme. AFAIK the two companies were "comparing notes."
I doubt that the NER would bring the York to Newcastle scheme forward from 1919 to 1906. However, the Shildon to Newport scheme which IIRC was approved in 1913 might be brought forward to 1906.
There are papers in the Merz & McLellan files in the Tyne & Wear archives which show that the Shildon to Newport scheme was originally part of a larger scheme that included the Darlington to Saltburn via Redcar and (believe it or not) Guisborough. Therefore it's possible that these lines would be electrified by 1914.
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Possibly for the Iron Ore Mines around Eston and Roseberry. Saltburn would have probably been for the Potash mines.
I haven't posted any spreadsheets for a while because I've been working on this.
This is the order in which I would electrify the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway. The distances are miles and chains. One chain = one eightieth of one mile.
The POD is 1902 because that is when the L&Y Board approved the Liverpool to Southport electrification. The succeeding columns show how much could be completed by the end of 1914 at an average conversion rate of 12½, 15, 20, 25 and 30 route miles per annum.
I think an average of 20 route miles per annum is the realistic maximum. As the total length of the L&YR was about 600 route miles the company would have electrified 40% of its network by the end of 1914.
Edit 1
These are some statistics about the L&YR at the end of 1921
Edit 2
This shows the lines electrified at the end of 1921 and what they were as a percentage of the L&YR
Edit 3
Some spelling mistakes have been corrected and the font size of the first spreadsheet has been increased from 8 to 10.
This is the order in which I would electrify the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway. The distances are miles and chains. One chain = one eightieth of one mile.
The POD is 1902 because that is when the L&Y Board approved the Liverpool to Southport electrification. The succeeding columns show how much could be completed by the end of 1914 at an average conversion rate of 12½, 15, 20, 25 and 30 route miles per annum.
I think an average of 20 route miles per annum is the realistic maximum. As the total length of the L&YR was about 600 route miles the company would have electrified 40% of its network by the end of 1914.
Edit 1
These are some statistics about the L&YR at the end of 1921
Edit 2
This shows the lines electrified at the end of 1921 and what they were as a percentage of the L&YR
Edit 3
Some spelling mistakes have been corrected and the font size of the first spreadsheet has been increased from 8 to 10.
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Pedant and nit pick warning.
A chain in English Measurement is 66ft = 22 yards! an eighth of a mile is a Furlong not a chain, One Furlong is 220 yards = 10 chains.
A chain in English Measurement is 66ft = 22 yards! an eighth of a mile is a Furlong not a chain, One Furlong is 220 yards = 10 chains.
Nit picking back, what I actually wrote was...
That is 1/80 not ⅛.
As it's nitpicking time NOMISYRRUC you have a Minsitry and Ormskrik twice in your spreadsheet
Pardon please NOMISYRRUC, I misread your 1/80 as you are quite correct I surmising!!
If you knew the amount of work that went into producing that spreadsheet (e.g. 2 visits to the National Railway Museum) you would be astounded at how few spelling mistakes that there are in it, not how many.