AHC/WI/POD: Successful unified Indo-Greek Empire and settlement.

Albert.Nik

Banned
Do you think somebody Czech or a Russian looks very different from German or a Brit? There is a lot of Genetic evidence, ancient descriptions and archeological evidence for this.
 
Do you think somebody Czech or a Russian looks very different from German or a Brit? There is a lot of Genetic evidence, ancient descriptions and archeological evidence for this.
There are differences and similarities, likewise with Southern Europeans.
Where's your genetic evidence that makes the similarities among Northern Europeans be due to genetic descent and excludes those same similarities with Southern Europeans?
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
There are differences and similarities, likewise with Southern Europeans.
Where's your genetic evidence that makes the similarities among Northern Europeans be due to genetic descent and excludes those same similarities with Southern Europeans?
Southern Europeans have slightly more admixture from ancestral peoples from Fertile Crescent. That's why they look a little different. But they are not very different.
 
Southern Europeans have slightly more admixture from ancestral peoples from Fertile Crescent. That's why they look a little different. But they are not very different.
That's not really true though and sounds remarkably like racist "southern Europeans are less pure" rhetoric.
Do you actually have any actual genetic evidence to back up your claim rather than the subjective "Northern Europeans look more like each other than they look like Southern Europeans"?
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
That's not really true though and sounds remarkably like racist "southern Europeans are less pure" rhetoric.
Do you actually have any actual genetic evidence to back up your claim rather than the subjective "Northern Europeans look more like each other than they look like Southern Europeans"?
I am saying only from a scientific point of view. I never said anything about purity. I just mentioned about the population dynamics. Southern Europeans do have haplogroups like J,E,etc which were from ancestral migrants to Europe from the fertile crescent when the Agriculture began or were already present. Please note that Southern Europe,Anatolia,Persia and India has a more conducive climate and hence more cosmopolitan. While Northern Europe,Central Asia,Tarim Basin,Steppes was almost empty when the Indo-Europeans migrated from their origin point. That explains the genetics and appearance of the two. I was not the one who mentioned about purity and such things. I was only talking about the Indo-European migrations.
 
I am saying only from a scientific point of view. I never said anything about purity. I just mentioned about the population dynamics. Southern Europeans do have haplogroups like J,E,etc which were from ancestral migrants to Europe from the fertile crescent when the Agriculture began or were already present. Please note that Southern Europe,Anatolia,Persia and India has a more conducive climate and hence more cosmopolitan. While Northern Europe,Central Asia,Tarim Basin,Steppes was almost empty when the Indo-Europeans migrated from their origin point. That explains the genetics and appearance of the two. I was not the one who mentioned about purity and such things. I was only talking about the Indo-European migrations.
But haplogroups =/= appearance.
And note that neither haplogroups of mitochondrial nor Y chromosomal DNA show Scythians as identical to Northern Europeans.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
But haplogroups =/= appearance.
And note that neither haplogroups of mitochondrial nor Y chromosomal DNA show Scythians as identical to Northern Europeans.
Scythians and other Indo-Iranians had R1a just like all their descendants in South and Central Asia. R1a is also heavily predominant on Central and Eastern Europens. Scythians don't exist in their pure form today except Ossetians. Punjabis,Pashtuns,Jats,Tajiks,etc are partially descended from Scythians. Tocharians are also carriers of R1a mainly. Western,Northern and Southern Europe has mostly R1B and varying degrees of E and J. Little difference between R1a and R1b anyways. But this thread is being detailed too much. If you want to discuss,it is better to move to chat and create a thread about Indo-European migrations.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
But anyway,Ossetians are the direct descendants of Scythians in their purest form surviving today. I suggest you read about them.
 
What I'm objecting to is your claims that Scythians are identical to Northern Europeans and that Northern Europeans are all identical genetically. Bear in mind that the referenced haplotypes =/= phenotypes.
 

Deleted member 116192

But haplogroups =/= appearance.
And note that neither haplogroups of mitochondrial nor Y chromosomal DNA show Scythians as identical to Northern Europeans.
I am not disagreeing with you I am elaborating your point without your permission, sorry yes what you said is absolutely true central Asian Scythian may have shared to some extent y chromosome haplogroup of pontic Scythian but the mitochondrial DNA varied

Scythian's were by no means a group of people belonging to a single race, there are basically two type of Scythian to put it very crudely (sorry about that) one is pontic and other central Asian both of them had some cultural similarity like in terms of god's and certain religious practices but they looked different, the pontic Scythian were European in appearance In some aspects given their obvious proximity to Europe and it's safe to say they were not northern European and very few had blonde hair or blue eyes in fact most of them were brown hair with red hair making a second place with black coming third and blonde in last and they were tall and of huge stature while central Asian Scythian were more similar in appearance to Iranian people but with east Asian admixture it's easy and tempting to put all of them in one box and say all of them were the same but no they were quite different in appearance
Coming back to pontic Scythian apart from alans or ossetians the entire steppe Russia and Ukraine are decendents of pontic Scythian with Slavic admixture hence you get blondes in such large number today but I think I would not be wrong to say southern Russians such as Don Cossacks are different from central and northern Russians while the former are closely linked to Anatolia Or ancient Indo Iranian with northern Russian belong to a more northern European stock, I may be wrong
 
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Deleted member 116192

Scythians and other Indo-Iranians had R1a just like all their descendants in South and Central Asia. R1a is also heavily predominant on Central and Eastern Europens. Scythians don't exist in their pure form today except Ossetians. Punjabis,Pashtuns,Jats,Tajiks,etc are partially descended from Scythians. Tocharians are also carriers of R1a mainly. Western,Northern and Southern Europe has mostly R1B and varying degrees of E and J. Little difference between R1a and R1b anyways. But this thread is being detailed too much. If you want to discuss,it is better to move to chat and create a thread about Indo-European migrations.
Well you are right on y chromosome haplogroup but why are you forgetting the mitochondrial DNA haplogroup which are different from place to place and restricted to regions while y chromosome is spread over the places because of human migration
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
@Freedom2018 Some observations in your text.
Most Northern and Central Europeans have slight Asian admixture. Most notably Finns,Hungarians,Slavs and probably even Baltic peoples. So Scythians wouldn't be devoid of it as well. However,East Asian invasions started just before Iranics and Tocharians got extinct in the Turkic invasions. Sogdians,a sub race of Scythians are documented in paintings mostly as European looking. While I agree they might not be identical but not to say they were that Mongoloid as well. Iranians are a mix of ancient peoples including slight AASI also and as for natives of pre IE Iran,Gutians,Hurrians,Urartians and other Caucasian peoples were White and Elamite and some in South Iran were Middle Eastern as today's Saudi/Yemen/UAE,etc. Sumerians were mixed of both. Scythians didn't have touch with any of these so it is not possible for them to be like Iranians. Iranians have little or no Mongoloid mixture and that happened in the late Mediaeval with Mongols and Turks. Also modern Iranians have significant Arab genes. Maybe those on the Far Eastern frontier of Scythia had little but not entire Scythians in Asia. One of my friend is from a possible Indo-Scythian race of Jatt who lives in North Punjab. He is light brown to ginger haired and looks quite European though not entirely. Most or all of Punjabis don't seem to exhibit any trace of East Asian mixture,in fact. So no,Central Asian Scythians weren't much different and theres less evidence to say otherwise.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
A small correction: Jatts are said to be directly from Indo-Scythians while Punjabis are a mix of Tocharians and Scythians and little from later Iranic White Huns(Swetha Huna).
 
None of which proves that Scythians are genetically identical to Northern Europeans, nor that Northern Europeans are genetically identical to each other but not Southern Europeans.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
None of which proves that Scythians are genetically identical to Northern Europeans, nor that Northern Europeans are genetically identical to each other but not Southern Europeans.
Then how did Scythians look like according to you? And back it up with proofs.
 
Then how did Scythians look like according to you? And back it up with proofs.
Why? The onus is on you to prove the genetically identical claim.
For me, just because the Scythians had high numbers of fair hair doesn't prove anything. I mean so did various groups of Celts but you're not claiming they're identical.
To me, the average Briton is as similar to the average Greek as they are to the average Russian.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Why? The onus is on you to prove the genetically identical claim.
For me, just because the Scythians had high numbers of fair hair doesn't prove anything. I mean so did various groups of Celts but you're not claiming they're identical.
To me, the average Briton is as similar to the average Greek as they are to the average Russian.
Why? The onus is on you to prove the genetically identical claim.
For me, just because the Scythians had high numbers of fair hair doesn't prove anything. I mean so did various groups of Celts but you're not claiming they're identical.
To me, the average Briton is as similar to the average Greek as they are to the average Russian.
They shared a lot of common genes coming from the same origin(Yamanya Culture) in the Steppes near Danube and little East from there. Might have some small variations in genes. But by appearance,Scythians,Tocharians,Indo-Iranians and Indo-Aryans were all European. But today,most of the original Indo-Aryans in their pure form are extinct due to an Upheavel that is hypothesized to be a bond event. Today some Dards and Kalash are the only pure Indo-Aryans surviving both of whom look quite European. Pure Scythians and pure Tocharians went extinct in later East Asian Turkic and Mongol invasions during the Mediaeval era.
How we know all this is because History has been well recorded in this times and studied as with Scientific aspects. Also,their paintings and today,their descendants clearly prove to us how they would have looked like.
 

Deleted member 116192

@Freedom2018 Some observations in your text.
Most Northern and Central Europeans have slight Asian admixture. Most notably Finns,Hungarians,Slavs and probably even Baltic peoples. So Scythians wouldn't be devoid of it as well. However,East Asian invasions started just before Iranics and Tocharians got extinct in the Turkic invasions. Sogdians,a sub race of Scythians are documented in paintings mostly as European looking. While I agree they might not be identical but not to say they were that Mongoloid as well. Iranians are a mix of ancient peoples including slight AASI also and as for natives of pre IE Iran,Gutians,Hurrians,Urartians and other Caucasian peoples were White and Elamite and some in South Iran were Middle Eastern as today's Saudi/Yemen/UAE,etc. Sumerians were mixed of both. Scythians didn't have touch with any of these so it is not possible for them to be like Iranians. Iranians have little or no Mongoloid mixture and that happened in the late Mediaeval with Mongols and Turks. Also modern Iranians have significant Arab genes. Maybe those on the Far Eastern frontier of Scythia had little but not entire Scythians in Asia. One of my friend is from a possible Indo-Scythian race of Jatt who lives in North Punjab. He is light brown to ginger haired and looks quite European though not entirely. Most or all of Punjabis don't seem to exhibit any trace of East Asian mixture,in fact. So no,Central Asian Scythians weren't much different and theres less evidence to say otherwise.
While I do agree with most of what you have to say but when I said Iranian I didn't mean modern day people of Iran, modern day Iranians are not the same ancient day Iranian people as you said in the post Iranian post Islamic conquest saw waves of migration from all over the Middle East and central Asia changing the demographic of the nation plus the bubonic plague how can we forget it wiped off a lot of original Iranian people, sadly only the irani and Parsi community retain to an extent ancient Iranian y chromosome not mitochondrial DNA my point is ancient Iranians are not modern Iranians and further by Iranian I meant the Magi and arteshan caste
 
They shared a lot of common genes coming from the same origin(Yamanya Culture) in the Steppes near Danube and little East from there. Might have some small variations in genes. But by appearance,Scythians,Tocharians,Indo-Iranians and Indo-Aryans were all European. But today,most of the original Indo-Aryans in their pure form are extinct due to an Upheavel that is hypothesized to be a bond event. Today some Dards and Kalash are the only pure Indo-Aryans surviving both of whom look quite European. Pure Scythians and pure Tocharians went extinct in later East Asian Turkic and Mongol invasions during the Mediaeval era.
How we know all this is because History has been well recorded in this times and studied as with Scientific aspects. Also,their paintings and today,their descendants clearly prove to us how they would have looked like.
Culture =/= genes.
Provide genetic evidence that these "similar" looks are due to inheritance and I will accept it.
You'll probably find you can't.
 

Deleted member 116192

By the way coming back to topic, the number of Greek that migrate to India were only 250.000 and the population of that side of the subcontinent was around 8 million IE modern day Afghanistan and Pakistan so how can the Greeks establish their empire in India without being indianized first, Hindus or Buddhist will not give up their faith or culture and become Greek , and Greek was used only As language of administration and lingua franca not beyond that unless you increase the number of migrants by a factor of 10 then that would be a ASB since in my opinion I think there aren't so many Greeks back then
 
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