Well, the only way to stop Long is to kill him. Reed's supposed to be okay with that?
Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg
- Thread starter RiverDelta
- Start date
He probably wouldn't be but it's not like Olson would publicize that he killed Huey.
Sure. I'm not saying it's right for the military to intervene. Earl Warren and I are pointing out that it's the exact same reasoning used by Long and Reed if they don't get their way. People don't like Long? Just have him him removed from office. Great. Sounds good. But what does Reed do instead? He "declares the worker's state" and kicks off the American Civil War. And Long and Reed are interchangeable in that situation. They respond exactly the same.
I have President Earl Warren on ignore and frankly don't care about his opinion.
When Reed rebels against Olson, it's because Olson failed completely to keep the country together as he promised, which is the only damn reason why Reed was willing to meet him halfway in the first place, and because Olson failed the USA is now a dead letter. I haven't seen the event chain when Huey is elected, but I would assume that the Dems and Reps refuse to help impeach Huey, so Reed says "screw it, this guy's going to literally disenfranchise and kill my guys, we're done here". Which I think is entirely reasonable; if the government is openly hostile to the very existence of your political views and has a history of using paramilitaries to rig elections as Huey does, that's a valid concern. Unless Mac Daddy coups Long first, in which case we're back to the "Mac Daddy killed America" thing.
But here's the thing. The military has no right or justification to interfere in politics. At all. Period. It is supposed to be apolitical and follow the President's orders so long as they do not conflict with the laws of the USA. The right of removal of the President falls first to Congress, then to the American people, and that is where it ends. By violating the trust of civilian control over the military, Mac Daddy has destroyed the USA and replaced it with MacArthurLand.
I'll also note that Reed automatically steps down as soon as the Syndicalists win, unlike Huey and Mac Daddy, so it's very clear that even in his most squeaky-clean chain, Reed still regrets his part in the war and feels unfit to lead the nation after the war is won; it's entirely likely that he only remains President during the war because changing horses mid-race would be a disaster.
@Worffan101
Look, at this point we're just sounding like broken records. Agree to disagree?
Look, at this point we're just sounding like broken records. Agree to disagree?
I mean, I've clearly and repeatedly pointed out that Reed and Long are both portrayed as fundamentally more reasonable people than Mac Daddy and rightly so (given MacArthur's historical propensity towards extreme arrogance and violent authoritarianism well beyond anything even Huey Long engaged in). I don't see how we can 'agree to disagree' on something that's clearly laid out in-game.
While at the same time completely ignoring the actual point I made in this... debate. So I fail to see the point in continuing the exchange as it's clear that you won't actually acknowledge my point.
Well in that very quote you acknowledge that if the orders given by a president conflict with the laws of the United States, then of course the military cannot carry them out. So what is the military supposed to do when President Long orders them to take military action against American citizens (ie: Reed and the syndicates before they commit treason in rising up to overthrow both Long and the United States Government). And then when Long's actions cause Reed as well as several states to rise up in rebellion, what is the military to do? Do they leave him in power?
And no military is ever "apolitical". The military is just as much a political force as states of the union are. This is why the original United States had no military whatsoever. The states did. Think about the First American Civil War. Was the military 100% loyal, unquestioning of the orders they received, and apolitical? Or did 60% percent of the officers up and join the Confederacy, as well as about half of the military divisions? In game, does the entire military stand behind MacArthur without question? Or do Smedley Butler and Patton go off and join the CSA or AUS along with a cadre of other officers and divisions?
Yes. Yes they should. Leave him in power, refusing to obey illegal orders.
The real threat to Reed from Long is always Long's paras, at least until the war starts.
Of course the military splits when MacArthur coups, he destroyed the USA and ruined his own pretensions of legitimacy in the process. No military may be completely apolitical because humans are fallible creatures by nature, but the US military was supposed to be quietly there, not involve itself in partisan matters, and act only as ordered to protect the country in accordance with its laws. MacArthur throws all that out. He destroys the very concept of civilian control over the military that's been enshrined in our legal system since the beginning. He spits on George Washington's grave for his own petty power grab.
The War of Southern Aggression, by the way? Those officers who joined the Confederacy were traitors. Robert E. Lee was nothing more than a petty traitor, no better than Benedict Arnold--in fact, worse than Benedict Arnold since Benedict Arnold didn't fight for slavery. That's how taking an oath to a country works. When a bunch of the country secedes, you don't get to go with them. Is Smedley Butler a traitor to the USA? Oh yeah. His justification (and IMO a valid one) is that when he defects the USA as an idea is dead, and only the shambling husk of its name continues on, but he's still legally a traitor.
Then again, so was George Washington.
You know what, as long as you're consistent about your beliefs. I disagree with basically everything you've said, but I can respect that you actually have beliefs that you stand by. I have a fundamentally different worldview and perspective about the war as portrayed by the mod. But that's neither here nor there. As I said earlier: we'll have to agree to disagree.
I still have trouble understanding how your worldview works, but fine. I'm essentially just restating the same points now.
IMO, the PSA and New England kinda stand alone. After all logically, if either remain independent long-term, it's because another regime is running the US and it's so god-awful that those sections are effectively forging new nations. Like in the one I worked on in the KR Photos thread - the PSA stayed its own country and New England integrated into Canada because first a MacArthurite military junta and then a hard-right democratic-in-name-but-actually-a-dictatorship were running the US, and by the time democracy came back both of them had diverged enough that they didn't want to rejoin the Union.
why did new England join Canada? I always see them going independent.
PSA are IMO good guys and logically should reintegrate into the successor state of the USA as long as it's reasonably democratic (so not Pelley, USAS, or Business Plot, but maybe Huey and definitely the Syndies). But never MacArthur, since they secede to protest his unlawful seizure of power.
New England is nothing but a puppet of Canada meant to protect business interests, and should be treated as such; it is not a legitimate successor to the USA and is slightly worse, morally speaking, than whoever's in charge of Canada.
New England apparently has a Legitimacy mechanic of some sort in the most recent patch. Maybe I should see about doing a Canada->New England run soon-ish to see what it actually is.
Ooh, that would be neat to see. It might be tied to how much of a mechanical puppet they are?
What if the PSA or New England become the US successor state after defeating, idk, Pelly's AUS where would you rank them? I would personalty rank PSA!America higher than New England!America because of that whole Canadian puppet thing.