Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings

[Cate13]

Henry VII Tudor, (1457-1521) King of England m. Elizabeth of York, (1466-1531), Queen of England

A) Arthur I Tudor, (1486-) King of England m. Catalina Trastamara (1485-), Infanta of Aragon​

1) Henry Tudor, (1501-1503)​

2) Arthur Tudor, (1503-1503)​

3) Margaret Tudor, (1506-1523) Princess of Wales m. Francis Tudor, (1507-), Prince of Wales, then Duke of Calais​

a) Katheryn Tudor, (1523-), Princess of England​

4) Henry Tudor, (1509-1509)​

5) Henry Tudor, (1511-1511)​

6) Mary Tudor, (1514-) Princess of England m. Ferdinand I, (1503-1564) Holy Roman Emperor​

7) Henry Tudor, (1518-1518)​

8) John Tudor, (1524-), Prince of Wales​

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B) Margaret Tudor, (1489-) m. a) James IV Stewart, (1473-1520), King of Scotland; b) James Hamilton, (), 1st Earl of Arran​

1a) James Stewart, (1507-1510)​

2a) Arthur Stewart, (1509-1509)​

3a) James V Stewart, (1512-1542), King of Scotland​

4a) Alexander Stewart, (1514-1560), Duke of Ross​

5b) Elizabeth Hamilton, (1529-)​

C) Henry II Tudor, (1491-), Duke of York and Richmond m. a) Catherine of Navarre (1483-1517), Queen of Navarre; b) Anne Boleyn, (1501-1530)​

1a) Henry III Tudor, (1504-), King of Navarre m. Jeanne Sophie Wettin, (1503-), Princess of Saxony*​

a) Jeanne Tudor, (1521-), Princess of Navarre​

b) Henry Tudor, (1522-), Prince of Navarre​

c) Anne Sophie Tudor, (1525-), Princess of Navarre​

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2a) Edward Tudor, (1505-1505)​

3a) Francis Tudor, (1507-), Duke of Calais m. Margaret Tudor, (1506-1523) Princess of Wales​

See Margaret Tudor​

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4a) Elizabeth Tudor (1510-1510)​

5a) Charles Tudor, (1511-), betrothed Leonora Borgia (1513-)**​

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6b) Elizabeth Tudor, (1522-)​

7b) Anne Tudor, (1524-1531)​

8b) Thomas Tudor, (1526-1526)​

9b) Eleanor Tudor, (1527-)​

D) Mary Tudor, (1496-1531) m. John III Avis, (1502-), King of Portugal​

1) Beatrice Avis, (1517-1520)​

2) Maria Avis, (1519-), Infanta of Portugal​

3) John Manuel Avis, (1521-), Infante of Portugal​

4) Anthony Avis, (1524-), Infante of Portugal​

5) Isabel Avis, (1528- ), Infanta of Portugal​

*OTL Johann Frederick I, Elector of Saxony

**daughter of Cesare Borgia and Charlotte d’Albret, since Cesare Borgia didn’t die in 1507.

 

[Tyler96]

John Tudor would be viewed as a bit of a miracle baby- born when his mother's almost forty after a string of brothers died in infancy (and possibly the odd stillbirth/miscarriage).

Did Mohacs still go down? Because a different marriage for Ferdinand would presumably affect Habsburg interests in Bohemia-Hungary.

 

[mrmandias]

Hey, do you know a place I could research pietism? When I check all I could find was post reformation/17th century stuff. And pre reformation relious feeling is definitely something I should brush up on.

Brotherhood of the Common Life, e.g.

 

[The Professor]

Fyi Margaret wouldn't be referred to as Princess of Wales as she could never be heir apparent, being female.

 

[pjmidd]

Fyi Margaret wouldn't be referred to as Princess of Wales as she could never be heir apparent, being female.

Correct, Princess Royal is the best she could get ( Princess Anne's title OTL as eldest ( and only ) daughter but its in the gift of the Monarch not an automatically given right ). Princess of Wales is the wife of the Prince of Wales ( although she can decline to use the title like the current Duchess of Cornwall )

 

[The Professor]

Correct, Princess Royal is the best she could get ( Princess Anne's title OTL as eldest ( and only ) daughter but its in the gift of the Monarch not an automatically given right ). Princess of Wales is the wife of the Prince of Wales ( although she can decline to use the title like the current Duchess of Cornwall )

Princess Royal only dates from the Stuarts anyway. Iirc James II wanted a way to distinguish his eldest daughter.

 

[pjmidd]

Princess Royal only dates from the Stuarts anyway. Iirc James II wanted a way to distinguish his eldest daughter.

I know but its not too big a leap ( t was borrowed from the French ). Think it was Charles I's daughter Mary who was the first not James II's daughter Mary ( who as she was Princess of Orange already by the time her cousin died would not have been granted it )

 

[The Professor]

I know but its not too big a leap ( t was borrowed from the French ). Think it was Charles I's daughter Mary who was the first not James II's daughter Mary ( who as she was Princess of Orange already by the time her cousin died would not have been granted it )

Considering the Iberian connection maybe "Infantess"?
I've often wondered why France didn't go down that route, preferring fils/fille de France.

 

[Cate13]

Fyi Margaret wouldn't be referred to as Princess of Wales as she could never be heir apparent, being female.

Correct, Princess Royal is the best she could get ( Princess Anne's title OTL as eldest ( and only ) daughter but its in the gift of the Monarch not an automatically given right ). Princess of Wales is the wife of the Prince of Wales ( although she can decline to use the title like the current Duchess of Cornwall )

So, OTL Mary Tudor was never made Princess of Wales, but she did basically live as Princess of Wales. She was Princess of Wales in all but name. Some people obviously thought a princes could be heir, that’s why some people were didn’t support Henry VIII’s OTL first divorce.

In this timeline when Arthur became King he only had the two daughters. But, Margaret was betrothed to Francis, who was from the other Tudor line with a claim to the English thrown.

So, I figured Arthur who is more rational than OTH Henry VIII (which isn’t hard) figures he’s not going to get a son and should begin shoring up his daughter’s claim by making her Princess of Wales.

The whole thing then becomes moot when Margaret dies in childbirth and Catherine gives birth to a living son.

 

[Cate13]

Did Mohacs still go down? Because a different marriage for Ferdinand would presumably affect Habsburg interests in Bohemia-Hungary.

Oomph I don’t know, Eastern European History isn’t my strong point, and with school I don’t have time to do the research that deserves. Any suggestions?

 

[The Professor]

Thing is, the whole point is having Wales tied to England. Making someone who isn't heir apparent of England the Prince runs the risk that the King of England nor his heir will ever be Prince of Wales again since Wales would go to the Prince's heirs not the King's. That's why no woman has ever been Princess of Wales in her own right because any younger brother is ahead of her in succession to England. (Until recently with absolute primogeniture being established).
The Prince of Wales only paid personal homage to the King of England, not liege homage.
Now, it'd make more sense for Arthur to make her Duchess of Cornwall or Countess of Chester since they are fiefs to England that are associated with the heir.

 

[colleoni]

Thing is, the whole point is having Wales tied to England. Making someone who isn't heir apparent of England the Prince runs the risk that the King of England nor his heir will ever be Prince of Wales again since Wales would go to the Prince's heirs not the King's. That's why no woman has ever been Princess of Wales in her own right because any younger brother is ahead of her in succession to England. (Until recently with absolute primogeniture being established).
The Prince of Wales only paid personal homage to the King of England, not liege homage.
Now, it'd make more sense for Arthur to make her Duchess of Cornwall or Countess of Chester since they are fiefs to England that are associated with the heir.

Could she not have been made Princess of Wales in the 1518-1523 period, possibly when Catalina gave the impression to have hit menopause and Arthur had caught an illness/fallen from a horse/undergone an injury? That would give the whole court a scare, considering the precedents, to the point that having a girl as Princess of Wales would seem a logical step in securing the dinasty and its holdings.

 

[pjmidd]

Oomph I don’t know, Eastern European History isn’t my strong point, and with school I don’t have time to do the research that deserves. Any suggestions?

Depends on if Louis II of Hungary dies without issue ( OTL killed at Mohacs ), Ferdinand married his sister and that's where the main Habsburg claim comes from OTL. Habsburg's other claim to both Bohemia and Hungary, came via Maximilian of Habsburg who claimed that the treaty of Wiener Neustadt meant he was rightful King of Hungary not Louis's father Vladislaus II when Matthias Corvinus died, but the Hungarians supported Vladislaus.

 

[The Professor]

Could she not have been made Princess of Wales in the 1518-1523 period, possibly when Catalina gave the impression to have hit menopause and Arthur had caught an illness/fallen from a horse/undergone an injury? That would give the whole court a scare, considering the precedents, to the point that having a girl as Princess of Wales would seem a logical step in securing the dinasty and its holdings.

Not really. Any younger brother, even of a different wife, comes before any older sister.

 

[Cate13]

Thing is, the whole point is having Wales tied to England. Making someone who isn't heir apparent of England the Prince runs the risk that the King of England nor his heir will ever be Prince of Wales again since Wales would go to the Prince's heirs not the King's. That's why no woman has ever been Princess of Wales in her own right because any younger brother is ahead of her in succession to England. (Until recently with absolute primogeniture being established).
The Prince of Wales only paid personal homage to the King of England, not liege homage.
Now, it'd make more sense for Arthur to make her Duchess of Cornwall or Countess of Chester since they are fiefs to England that are associated with the heir.

Could she not have been made Princess of Wales in the 1518-1523 period, possibly when Catalina gave the impression to have hit menopause and Arthur had caught an illness/fallen from a horse/undergone an injury? That would give the whole court a scare, considering the precedents, to the point that having a girl as Princess of Wales would seem a logical step in securing the dinasty and its holdings.

Not really. Any younger brother, even of a different wife, comes before any older sister.

But without the marrying my brothers widow excuse Arthur doesn’t really have an avenue for divorce and he’s not likely to outlive Catherine, she has better health than he does.

Arthur’s still got his less than optimal health from OTL, so he felt he needed to shore up succession.

 

[Cate13]

Depends on if Louis II of Hungary dies without issue ( OTL killed at Mohacs ), Ferdinand married his sister and that's where the main Habsburg claim comes from OTL. Habsburg's other claim to both Bohemia and Hungary, came via Maximilian of Habsburg who claimed that the treaty of Wiener Neustadt meant he was rightful King of Hungary not Louis's father Vladislaus II when Matthias Corvinus died, but the Hungarians supported Vladislaus.

I might just have Louis II live long enough to have a son. It sounds like it’s the simplest avenue and I’m already having trouble keep up with the dynastic changes the timeline has made.

 

[The Professor]

But without the marrying my brothers widow excuse Arthur doesn’t really have an avenue for divorce and he’s not likely to outlive Catherine, she has better health than he does.

Arthur’s still got his less than optimal health from OTL, so he felt he needed to shore up succession.

Yeah, but the second thing is there's still a traditional soldier role for English rulers - that's why Elizabeth made that famous speech OTL.
Arthur might want Margaret Princess but he's not an absolute ruler, and accidents are possible.

 

[Cate13]

Yeah, but the second thing is there's still a traditional soldier role for English rulers - that's why Elizabeth made that famous speech OTL.
Arthur might want Margaret Princess but he's not an absolute ruler, and accidents are possible.

And that’s why Margaret was married to Francis Tudor. He could handle the soldiery bits

 

[The Professor]

And that’s why Margaret was married to Francis Tudor. He could handle the soldiery bits

What about acts of God?
The only way I could see Margaret being made PoW is on Arthur's deathbed.

 

[Cate13]

What about acts of God?
The only way I could see Margaret being made PoW is on Arthur's deathbed.

But leaving it till his deathbed would make inheritance even more uncertain. I just don’t see Arthur as the kind of guy who’s gonna gamble on his wife dying and being able to remarry and pop out son before he dies. Arthur isn’t Henry VIII who blamed his wives for fertility. Arthur gets that part of the problem is him.

Let’s look at his other options, if he doesn’t make Margaret Princess of Wales, people aren’t going to know whether Arthur will be succeeded by his daughter or his brother, who at this point has the whole Bible in English thing going on. If he bypasses Prince Henry because of religious reasons he’s gotta skip King Henri III, for the same reason. And then next is Francis Tudor, who is betrothed to Margaret and has been raised in England.

I get if you feel it to unlikely to have happened, you have a lot of goood points. I don’t feel like it’s too unlikely to have happened. So there we are.