An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Evilprodigy: Do you mind telling me where you got the pop figures for Ottoman Egypt and Sicily in 1600? I could always use that kind of data.

I’m on record at multiple points that Egypt is still only around 3 million people. The Time of Troubles and the Great Uprising really did a number on the place, plus only the Copts and Nile Germans are of sufficient size and loyalty to provide lots of troops.

Sicily is in the same way; I’m on record at multiple points that they’re around 3 million as well. Although here I don’t have a good reason for the lower figure. Time of Troubles hurt a lot, but aside from bad corsair raids in the past few decades they haven’t had major issues. Pogroms would’ve hurt some. I’m probably forced to handwave some bad epidemics and leave it at that. Not a good solution admittedly but the best I can come up with.

Anizzah are still an important eastern ally. Ethiopia too can help with the Ottomans, both through harassing them in the Gulf and potentially sending troops to the Levant.
Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1600

The source they give for the Ottoman Empire is Two Thousand Years of Economic Statistics, Years 1–2012 by Alexander V. Avakov which itself cites a source called Maddison which seems to be Angus Maddison's, The World Economy Volume 1: A Millennial Perspective.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=-U...onepage&q=population of ethiopia 1600&f=false

The one for Sicily/Naples they cite this website:
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/modern-europe/italian-history/kingdom-naples
It doesn't have citations but it does have a list of sources, and if I was a betting man I'd say the source with the population number is Antonio Calabria's The Cost of Empire. The Finances of the Kingdom of Naples in the Time of Spanish Rule.
 
Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1600

The source they give for the Ottoman Empire is Two Thousand Years of Economic Statistics, Years 1–2012 by Alexander V. Avakov which itself cites a source called Maddison which seems to be Angus Maddison's, The World Economy Volume 1: A Millennial Perspective.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=-UPyBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=population+of+ethiopia+1600&source=bl&ots=atiCDyE3sL&sig=70b_LU6a3SQPnZDqBusoWPQvjP0&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=population of ethiopia 1600&f=false

The one for Sicily/Naples they cite this website:
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/modern-europe/italian-history/kingdom-naples
It doesn't have citations but it does have a list of sources, and if I was a betting man I'd say the source with the population number is Antonio Calabria's The Cost of Empire. The Finances of the Kingdom of Naples in the Time of Spanish Rule.

I find the demographics of Japan odd or contrary to European demographics of the time.

Based on the links you gave Japan is equal to France. Considering that Japan is 70% mountains, less than 1/2 of Turkey's land area, 2/3s of France and just came from their bloody Sengoku.

Has this something to do with efficient food production on limited space? or more efficient administration of the Japanese compared to 1600 Europe?

That is why I find ERE ATL below maximum population potential in Anatolia alone.
 
I find the demographics of Japan odd or contrary to European demographics of the time.

Based on the links you gave Japan is equal to France. Considering that Japan is 70% mountains, less than 1/2 of Turkey's land area, 2/3s of France and just came from their bloody Sengoku.

Has this something to do with efficient food production on limited space? or more efficient administration of the Japanese compared to 1600 Europe?

That is why I find ERE ATL below maximum population potential in Anatolia alone.
The Black Death.

Europe lost 50-60% of its population, and France was hit pretty damn hard. Smaller outbreaks persisted well into the 17th century (such as the 1665 outbreak in England which was the last major outbreak in that country) and even before the plague there was a series of famines across the 14th century, with the great famine alone from 1315-17 claiming millions of lives. One plague of note started in 1318, and targeted farm animals, which reduced the amount of protein and vitamin D in the diets of many Europeans and contributed to later famines, but also the devastation of the black death. The plague also kicked off peasant revolts and civil wars were common, France had 9 of them. Peasant revolts, like the Jacquerie in France, the great peasant revolt of 1381 in England, or the Peasant Revolt in 1323 Flanders are emblematic of wide-scale popular uprisings from the 14th through to the 15th centuries, with Germany playing host to apparently at least sixty.

These catastrophic population collapses, mostly from the Black Death and resultant affects of it, crippled Europe's population and set it back 150 years. Europe's population would reach 1300 levels in 1450 but some countries did not recover until much later, with England still having a population of 2.2 million in 1485 when around 1300 it had at least 4 to 5 million, possibly even 6 million. You'll see in that wikipedia article the population of England they give is 4.15 million, a pathetically small amount given its 1300 demographic.

Japan had, well, nothing even remotely like that. Even the Sengoku period was not all that destructive compared to what Europe faced in the middle ages. Apparently the Japanese government instituted a census beginning in 1721, so the most accurate number we have is 26 million people but that was for people who worked for landowners and was collected by temples, estimates put the actual population at around 30 million to account for exempt populations such as monks, travelling merchants, and nobility. This was the Danka System, and it's similar to the Prussian Cantons or English Parishes since affiliation with a Buddhist temple was required by law. It began in 1664 to suppress Christianity but proved very useful to enumerate populations and was standardized in 1671. I don't have those earliest records available to me but apparently there was rapid growth after the end of the Sengoku period because of the political unity and economic activity which transpired. Japan's always had a comparatively large population, just look at it today with 127 million and France with 67 million.
 
wait what about the savior of the Romans is not any group of people or anything like that but what if what saved them was diseases a new deadly outbreak
 
The Black Death.

Is that even possible? The chinese being exposed to this right next door and trading with Japan yet Japan has no black death?

These catastrophic population collapses, mostly from the Black Death and resultant affects of it, crippled Europe's population and set it back 150 years. Europe's population would reach 1300 levels in 1450 but some countries did not recover until much later, with England still having a population of 2.2 million in 1485 when around 1300 it had at least 4 to 5 million, possibly even 6 million. You'll see in that wikipedia article the population of England they give is 4.15 million, a pathetically small amount given its 1300 demographic.

Even if there was really no black death in Japan, Isn't 1600 already very far from Black death? I mean sufficient time to recover from Black death.

Once you start checking Japan and French population progress, which is roughly the same.

Accdg to Maddison:

Japan
7.5M 1000 AD
15.4M 1500 AD
18.5M 1600 AD

France
6.5M 1000AD
15M 1500 AD
18.5M 1600 AD
 
Is that even possible? The chinese being exposed to this right next door and trading with Japan yet Japan has no black death?



Even if there was really no black death in Japan, Isn't 1600 already very far from Black death? I mean sufficient time to recover from Black death.

Once you start checking Japan and French population progress, which is roughly the same.

Accdg to Maddison:

Japan
7.5M 1000 AD
15.4M 1500 AD
18.5M 1600 AD

France
6.5M 1000AD
15M 1500 AD
18.5M 1600 AD

The Black Death is one reason for population loss but the associated factors are what made it so deadly. The black death in China killed 1/3 of the population, and that was because of the widespread destruction and famine wrought by the Mongol Conquests. Japan had no such issues, being united under the stable Kamakura Shogunate and Ashikaga Shogunate during these eras with enough food security to help mitigate its effects as well as enough isolation from being an island with a tightly controlled population to prevent or mitigate the spread of mainland diseases. Europe suffered serious famines right before the plague which weakened the immune systems of the population, and Europeans rarely bathed due to church bans on it. So when the Black Death struck, it struck VERY hard, even harder than China per capita. You'd think it would be enough time to recover, and it is, but the mass death stunted the population, which is the point I'm getting at. Japan didn't suffer the same massive setback France and all of Europe did so that's why it's population is so much higher. They didn't even get conquered by the Mongols.
 
@Basileus444 why isn't Theodor reining his armies in? Butchering his own "subjects" is so incredibly counterproductive even he should see it. Being half-starved doesn't absolve them of what they did. Will he be publicly executing his soldiers to make an example?
 
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Interesting, what are the chances that the German army implodes at the gates of Constantinople? Unable to crack the walls, with their supply line overrun by a Roman counterattack, everything closing in on them.
Heck, how will that not be the case? Seems like the Allies are hugging the Danube, with no serious effort to supply anything south of it. Meanwhile, the entire Roman countryside seems to be going full guerrilla warfare.

We would finally get to see the Heraklian Walls(HW) put to use. Every map I see of Constantinople, my mind adds them, I imagine them to look like the Heraklion walls in Crete. The planner in me sees the amount of potential in the land made available for the city`s hinterland. That is a lot of garden and orchard space with room for hospitals, and major water works ie. drainage, wells and reservoirs. Good for both growing, and siege fighting. They also drastically change the purpose of the Theodosian Walls(TW), would they try to integrate them with the HW? They would have to have extended the seawalls. Would they become the limit of what is considered `city`, like ancient Romes Pomerium? I imagine the term changed from it's more religious background to fit the bureaucratic christian empire. Vauban would be impressed with the HW, and I bet would have a chuckle still 4 months into the siege as they still frustrate him, if the persistent guerrilla attacks and disease dancing through his camp didn't make hinm grind his teeth to dust.
 
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The Germans will face massive guerilla resistance, just like in the WWII.
Constantinople will become the anvil. Who will become the hammer?
By the way, what is the condition of the fortifications in Thessaloniki ?
An excellent update as always, Basileus!
 
The Black Death is one reason for population loss but the associated factors are what made it so deadly. The black death in China killed 1/3 of the population, and that was because of the widespread destruction and famine wrought by the Mongol Conquests. Japan had no such issues, being united under the stable Kamakura Shogunate and Ashikaga Shogunate during these eras with enough food security to help mitigate its effects as well as enough isolation from being an island with a tightly controlled population to prevent or mitigate the spread of mainland diseases. Europe suffered serious famines right before the plague which weakened the immune systems of the population, and Europeans rarely bathed due to church bans on it. So when the Black Death struck, it struck VERY hard, even harder than China per capita. You'd think it would be enough time to recover, and it is, but the mass death stunted the population, which is the point I'm getting at. Japan didn't suffer the same massive setback France and all of Europe did so that's why it's population is so much higher. They didn't even get conquered by the Mongols.

How does that affect population in 1600? No recovery whatsoever? Even Germany and France, other European states, China surpassed their OTL pre black death populations by 1600 At worst 1700.

Mongols and Black death shouldnt be even a reason when you have hundreds of years to recover and then surpass/doubling your previous pre black death population.

Your argument should be a valid reason if it was the 1300s though. But is it? There must be an underlying reason other than Black death due to span of time to recover.
 
How does that affect population in 1600? No recovery whatsoever? Even Germany and France, other European states, China surpassed their OTL pre black death populations by 1600 At worst 1700.

Mongols and Black death shouldnt be even a reason when you have hundreds of years to recover and then surpass/doubling your previous pre black death population.

Your argument should be a valid reason if it was the 1300s though. But is it? There must be an underlying reason other than Black death due to span of time to recover.
You're missing my point.

It's not that they haven't recovered, they did, it's that they were kicked back as a result of the mass death. The Black Death stunted the total population figure because if it was not there France would have had far far more people. In order to get back to 1300 levels it took until around 1450. If they had not had to spend 150 years recovering they could have instead spent 150 years growing instead. Like Japan did. See what I mean? It's lost growth opportunity, the ramifications of which are only felt in the long term, not just the lost people who died as a result of the plague.
 
Wasn't Europe overpopulated before the Black Death? IIRC the peasants were cultivating marginal lands for subsistence and were suffering crushing poverty levels because the labour surplus was so big. I don't know that a continued population growth would've lasted for much longer.
 
Wasn't Europe overpopulated before the Black Death? IIRC the peasants were cultivating marginal lands for subsistence and were suffering crushing poverty levels because the labour surplus was so big. I don't know that a continued population growth would've lasted for much longer.
This is true, but it's still a higher population. They'd have a shitty life, almost certainly, but there's still more of them. They wouldn't grow at the same rate but, well, they would be growing as opposed to catching up to what they once were.
 
This is true, but it's still a higher population. They'd have a shitty life, almost certainly, but there's still more of them. They wouldn't grow at the same rate but, well, they would be growing as opposed to catching up to what they once were.
Yes but also before the Black Death there was a massive famine we have few records on it but the few we do have talk about how it was the end of times so the Black Death in a way saved Europe from over pop so without the Black Death very decade there would be devastating famine that would not end until the pop goes down to a point that can be supported and we would probably eventually sera Irish famine on the size of Europe and larger when the warm period enda
 
IIRC Europe was hit by a chain of crop failures from cold summers caused by a volcanic eruption in New Zealand or something like that. The peasants were living off of pigs (which can eat anything) for several years, and this unbalanced diet weakened their immune system just in time for Black Death.

Yeah, even if the Black Death didn't hit Europe probably would've suffered chronic outbreaks of lesser diseases until something brought down the population levels to more sustainable levels.
 
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Yes but also before the Black Death there was a massive famine we have few records on it but the few we do have talk about how it was the end of times so the Black Death in a way saved Europe from over pop so without the Black Death very decade there would be devastating famine that would not end until the pop goes down to a point that can be supported and we would probably eventually sera Irish famine on the size of Europe and larger when the warm period enda

IIRC Europe was hit by a chain of crop failures from cold summers caused by a volcanic eruption in New Zealand or something like that. The peasants were living off of pigs (which can eat anything) for several years, and this unbalanced diet weakened their immune system just in time for Black Death.

Yeah, even if the Black Death didn't hit Europe probably would've suffered chronic outbreaks of lesser diseases until something brought down the population levels to more sustainable levels.

I mentioned these things already.

Europe was effectively near its carrying capacity come 1350 but, sans plagues and famine, would have still had an excess of population to the determent of people living there. They needed to more efficiently pull food from the ground they did farm or expand the amount of land under cultivation, be that the introduction of the potato or new technologies like four field crop rotation. When Europe did get around to receiving these things they were still recovering from the Black Death, giving them a smaller initial population with which to grow and expand in the Early Modern Era compared to regions like China and India who exploded in population thanks to the introduction of the Potato, Sweet Potato, and Corn/Maize. If a two regions grow by 3%, then the one with a larger initial population ends up with a larger growth.
 
JohnSmith: It is a powerful combination. I like the idea of a Roman Empire that, while it’s outnumbered, can out-think and out-spend its enemies (which was the at-least-desired modus operandi for a long time).
Seems like the situation is ripe for the Romans to embrace Total War and the levée en masse. There's no other way to combat the 2 huge armies closing in on the Western and Eastern front.

The Romans are still unsure about what exactly happened at Belgrade and credit its capitulation to the skill of the Triune siege train. Letting that rampage along the Danube, with the resulting potential to threaten Constantinople itself, is not an option. So Laskaris marches north to face Blucher’s main force. He leaves some forces behind in Upper Macedonia (OTL FYROM) with Ohrid receiving a respectable garrison, but the rest of the region has only token forces.
What do they expect to accomplish? The Allies have at least 30,000 more men. To buy time for them to beat back Shah Ibrahim's smaller army?
 
Seems like the situation is ripe for the Romans to embrace Total War and the levée en masse. There's no other way to combat the 2 huge armies closing in on the Western and Eastern front.


What do they expect to accomplish? The Allies have at least 30,000 more men. To buy time for them to beat back Shah Ibrahim's smaller army?
Levee en Masse is a bit anachronistic. The Regimental Cantons system maybe as a natural evolution of the Theme System as a force of conscription for all able bodied men rather than recruitment and upkeep. But even then that's still a century removed institution and one unique to a nation who by necessity needed a proportionally large army to even survive, alone compete, in the European world of the 18th century. We're in the midst of the 30 years war era of warfare, and that shit ain't pretty or efficient.
 
Levee en Masse is a bit anachronistic. The Regimental Cantons system maybe as a natural evolution of the Theme System as a force of conscription for all able bodied men rather than recruitment and upkeep. But even then that's still a century removed institution and one unique to a nation who by necessity needed a proportionally large army to even survive, alone compete, in the European world of the 18th century. We're in the midst of the 30 years war era of warfare, and that shit ain't pretty or efficient.

The Romans used the levee en masse earlier in the story. Only in a limited area, Syria and Antioch I think, and as a strategy it was discarded in the post war period. So the Romans know what it is and have an idea of how to do it they’ve just never had the need until now.
 
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