Yorkist TL - Planning Thread

[Old1812]

For a while now, I've been working on a pretty standard Yorkist TL. The PODs are pretty small: Mary of Burgundy doesn't die in a riding accident. James III is killed by the pro-Albany lords, James IV and his retainers are forced into exile, allowing the Duke of Albany to become king. Butterflies cause Edward IV to live a few years longer. I'm thinking of having Matthias Corvinus and Afonso of Portugal live longer, as well as have Catherine of Aragon born male.

For Spain, I'm thinking of having either:
1) the Trastamaras continue to rule with male-Catherine, or
2) have everyone die as OTL (fairly improbable), but have a surviving Francis of Habsburg marry Joanna of Castile, separating the Imperial and Spanish branches much earlier.

Edward, Prince of Wales marries Anne of Brittany, which I'm guessing could re-ignite the Hundred Years War, greatly diminishing the Italian Wars. The HRE would likely be an ally here, exemplified by having Anne of York marry Philip the Fair.

How about having Martin Luther become a lawyer, instead of a monk, so that Zwingli starts the Reformation in Switzerland?

Feel free to leave ideas and criticism, it's what this thread is here for!

 

[lolotte34]

as well as have Catherine of Aragon born male.

Catherine becomes Ferdinand and he can marry one of Edward IV's daughters. You have three choices :

• Anne of York (2 November 1475 – 23 November 1511); married Thomas Howard (later 3rd Duke of Norfolk), on 4 February 1495.
• Catherine of York (14 August 1479 – 15 November 1527); married William Courtenay, 1st Earl of Devon, In October 1495.
• Bridget of York (10 November 1480 – 1517); became a nun.

What year will Edward IV die? Will Richard of Gloucester remain loyal to Edward V? Will the battle of Bosworth take place? Will Henri Tudor become king?

 

[Old1812]

Catherine becomes Ferdinand and he can marry one of Edward IV's daughters. You have three choices :

• Anne of York (2 November 1475 – 23 November 1511); married Thomas Howard (later 3rd Duke of Norfolk), on 4 February 1495.
• Catherine of York (14 August 1479 – 15 November 1527); married William Courtenay, 1st Earl of Devon, In October 1495.
• Bridget of York (10 November 1480 – 1517); became a nun.

What year will Edward IV die? Will Richard of Gloucester remain loyal to Edward V? Will the battle of Bosworth take place? Will Henri Tudor become king?

I'm thinking butterflies could allow Edward IV to live a bit longer, and even if he does die before his son can rule in his own right, it's easier to usurp a 13-year-old than a 17-year-old. I don't think Gloucester will make a bid for the throne here, he was on shaky ground IOTL anyway. I don't what Henry Tudor was up to at this point, but maybe he can come back to England at some point. If he comes back, I really doubt he'll try to take the throne (his claim was very weak, right of conquest notwithstanding).

If Catherine is born male, one interesting choice is Germaine of Foix, if she's born ITTL. If Juan of Asturias dies ITTL (pretty likely), his brother is the heir, and getting a claim to Navarre would be pretty nice.

One thing to keep in mind (as Zulfurium explained to me), is that England was greatly weakened after the Wars of the Roses, and didn't really become powerful again until about Henry VIII.

 

[Tyler96]

I'm thinking butterflies could allow Edward IV to live a bit longer, and even if he does die before his son can rule in his own right, it's easier to usurp a 13-year-old than a 17-year-old. I don't think Gloucester will make a bid for the throne here, he was on shaky ground IOTL anyway. I don't what Henry Tudor was up to at this point, but maybe he can come back to England at some point. If he comes back, I really doubt he'll try to take the throne (his claim was very weak, right of conquest notwithstanding).

And without the Yorkist rupturing it's unlikely Henry would get the opportunity or the support necessary to get near the throne.

What's your view on the long-term relationship between Edward V and Richard of Gloucester? I imagine there might still be tensions there- Richard being dissatisfied at being locked out of court/influence by the Woodvilles, Richard worrying that a hostile king will revisit the terms of the Warwick inheritance (Richard's claim here was legally shaky, and if he still loses his connection to Warwick with the deaths of Anne and Edward of Middleham that won't help matters), Woodvilles getting paranoid if the precontract rumour is floating around etc.

Also, I imagine Buckingham will try and cause some sort of mischief, with his loathing of the Woodvilles, dissatisfaction at being denied offices that someone of his stature deserves, and the ambition/erraticness that caused him to bail on Richard IOTL. If there's a relatively solid regime behind Edward V I'm not sure what he could do, though.

 

[isabella]

And without the Yorkist rupturing it's unlikely Henry would get the opportunity or the support necessary to get near the throne.

What's your view on the long-term relationship between Edward V and Richard of Gloucester? I imagine there might still be tensions there- Richard being dissatisfied at being locked out of court/influence by the Woodvilles, Richard worrying that a hostile king will revisit the terms of the Warwick inheritance (Richard's claim here was legally shaky, and if he still loses his connection to Warwick with the deaths of Anne and Edward of Middleham that won't help matters), Woodvilles getting paranoid if the precontract rumour is floating around etc.

Also, I imagine Buckingham will try and cause some sort of mischief, with his loathing of the Woodvilles, dissatisfaction at being denied offices that someone of his stature deserves, and the ambition/erraticness that caused him to bail on Richard IOTL. If there's a relatively solid regime behind Edward V I'm not sure what he could do, though.

If Richard lose all the rights to the Warwick inheritance then everything will go to George and Margaret of Clarence but considering who Edward IV had already given to his sister the lands of her traitor husband (and destined the inheritance to Anne’s children by any husband so after the death of her only daughter by that wedding the daughter she had by the second husband became the new heiress), consented to George and Richard to divide between them the lands of their still alive mother-in-law and named his younger son Richard as heir of the young heiress to which he was married, I think who Richard of Gloucester will be pretty likely to keep his land and maybe the custody of George and Margaret, specially if if he remarry to some relatives of Elizabeth.

 

[Tyler96]

If Richard lose all the rights to the Warwick inheritance then everything will go to George and Margaret of Clarence but considering who Edward IV had already given to his sister the lands of her traitor husband (and destined the inheritance to Anne’s children by any husband so after the death of her only daughter by that wedding the daughter she had by the second husband became the new heiress), consented to George and Richard to divide between them the lands of their still alive mother-in-law and named his younger son Richard as heir of the young heiress to which he was married, I think who Richard of Gloucester will be pretty likely to keep his land and maybe the custody of George and Margaret, specially if if he remarry to some relatives of Elizabeth.

Presumably you mean George of Clarence's son Edward Earl of Warwick? George himself was executed in 1478, which is before the POD.

You're right though- from Edward V's POV it's probably better for the Warwick inheritance to be divided up between Edward of Warwick and Richard rather than having it concentrated in the hands of a single person. But is giving it all to Warwick the only option if Edward V is undermining Richard's title to the Warwick lands? I was under the impression that at least some of the Warwick inheritance "rightfully" belonged to Warwick's nephew George Neville (though admittedly George died in 1483 IOTL anyway).

In any case, Richard's uncertain legal hold on his lands is occasionally brought up as one of the reasons he went at the throne IOTL, so I thought I'd mention it here because in this scenario it could create tension between Richard and Edward V/the Woodvilles, or at least cause unease on Richard's part.

Richard's remarriage is also an interesting point- if Anne Neville dies on schedule, and Edward IV lives a few years longer, it's possible Richard is remarrying whilst Edward IV is still on the throne. What does that look like?

 

[Old1812]

And without the Yorkist rupturing it's unlikely Henry would get the opportunity or the support necessary to get near the throne.

What's your view on the long-term relationship between Edward V and Richard of Gloucester? I imagine there might still be tensions there- Richard being dissatisfied at being locked out of court/influence by the Woodvilles, Richard worrying that a hostile king will revisit the terms of the Warwick inheritance (Richard's claim here was legally shaky, and if he still loses his connection to Warwick with the deaths of Anne and Edward of Middleham that won't help matters), Woodvilles getting paranoid if the precontract rumour is floating around etc.

Also, I imagine Buckingham will try and cause some sort of mischief, with his loathing of the Woodvilles, dissatisfaction at being denied offices that someone of his stature deserves, and the ambition/erraticness that caused him to bail on Richard IOTL. If there's a relatively solid regime behind Edward V I'm not sure what he could do, though.

If I remember correctly, Richard of Gloucester was fairly close to John Howard, so I'm considering having him to remarry to Katherine Howard, the youngest Howard daughter. ITTL, as the Duchy of Norfolk is already taken by Richard of Shrewsbury, Howard will likely become Earl or Duke of Oxford. I thought this might make sense, as he had gotten the de Vere lands, you may as well give him the title and make it official.

I'm thinking of having Edward V split the Warwick lands between Edward and Gloucester. Would it be too much for Edward V to restore Edward to Duke of Clarence?

 

[isabella]

Presumably you mean George of Clarence's son Edward Earl of Warwick? George himself was executed in 1478, which is before the POD.

You're right though- from Edward V's POV it's probably better for the Warwick inheritance to be divided up between Edward of Warwick and Richard rather than having it concentrated in the hands of a single person. But is giving it all to Warwick the only option if Edward V is undermining Richard's title to the Warwick lands? I was under the impression that at least some of the Warwick inheritance "rightfully" belonged to Warwick's nephew George Neville (though admittedly George died in 1483 IOTL anyway).

In any case, Richard's uncertain legal hold on his lands is occasionally brought up as one of the reasons he went at the throne IOTL, so I thought I'd mention it here because in this scenario it could create tension between Richard and Edward V/the Woodvilles, or at least cause unease on Richard's part.

Richard's remarriage is also an interesting point- if Anne Neville dies on schedule, and Edward IV lives a few years longer, it's possible Richard is remarrying whilst Edward IV is still on the throne. What does that look like?

Too many Edwards around and I called him with his father name... I was talking about Edward of Clarence... George Neville can have some rights to a share of Warwick's own land but zero rights on the biggest part of his lands including the Earldom of Warwick who were held by his uncle jure uxoris so the best way to handle the situation is let Richard keep his share of lands (and if I remember well his wedding contract to Anne explicity said who in case of annulment of the wedding Richard would haved kept the lands of Anne so I think would be the same if she died heirless).

 

[Old1812]

Does anyone know how far along the plans for the Prince to Wales to marry Anne of Brittany were? If the marriage goes through, Brittany will now be firmly in the English camp, and the Yorks will likely eventually rule the duchy. This seems like it would be unacceptable in the extreme for France, making any Italian adventures of secondary importance. England is still pretty weak, could an alliance with the HRE be on the table? Any ideas how Europe would look with no/greatly reduced Italian Wars?

 

[Old1812]

If I decide on having Philip the Fair rule the Empire with Francis and Joanna ruling Spain, could this have an effect on the Reformation in their respective states? Spain was pretty solidly Catholic, and the Reformation didn't take hold, but if Philip or his son convert, this might make Francis decide to go even harder in the Catholic direction. It seems very likely we could see war break out between the Imperial Habsburgs and the Spanish Habsburgs over who should rule the Empire.

 

[isabella]

If I decide on having Philip the Fair rule the Empire with Francis and Joanna ruling Spain, could this have an effect on the Reformation in their respective states? Spain was pretty solidly Catholic, and the Reformation didn't take hold, but if Philip or his son convert, this might make Francis decide to go even harder in the Catholic direction. It seems very likely we could see war break out between the Imperial Habsburgs and the Spanish Habsburgs over who should rule the Empire.

Not really. If the eldest son will be Juana’s heir in Spain not giving him any land inside the HRE (like Milan and Burgundy/Netherlands) will be enough for keeping him from claiming the Imperial Crown (plus Philip can very well having his other son aka his designated heir elected and crowned as King of the Romans (aka designated Emperor)

 

[VVD0D95]

If I decide on having Philip the Fair rule the Empire with Francis and Joanna ruling Spain, could this have an effect on the Reformation in their respective states? Spain was pretty solidly Catholic, and the Reformation didn't take hold, but if Philip or his son convert, this might make Francis decide to go even harder in the Catholic direction. It seems very likely we could see war break out between the Imperial Habsburgs and the Spanish Habsburgs over who should rule the Empire.

Also the chances of Philip the Fair going Protestant are fairly slim, man was a Habsburg and a devout Catholuic, from what I remember reading.

 

[Old1812]

Not really. If the eldest son will be Juana’s heir in Spain not giving him any land inside the HRE (like Milan and Burgundy/Netherlands) will be enough for keeping him from claiming the Imperial Crown (plus Philip can very well having his other son aka his designated heir elected and crowned as King of the Romans (aka designated Emperor)

Very true, though not having any territory within the HRE didn't stop Francis I from trying or Henry VIII from considering it.

Also the chances of Philip the Fair going Protestant are fairly slim, man was a Habsburg and a devout Catholuic, from what I remember reading.

Philip may not convert, but alt-Charles V could decide to go along with it.

 

[VVD0D95]

Very true, though not having any territory within the HRE didn't stop Francis I from trying or Henry VIII from considering it.
Philip may not convert, but alt-Charles V could decide to go along with it.

Would he though? Given the environment he's likely raised in

 

[isabella]

Very true, though not having any territory within the HRE didn't stop Francis I from trying or Henry VIII from considering it.
Philip may not convert, but alt-Charles V could decide to go along with it.

Not having any territory when your brother/cousin had a considerable powerbase there and is the family candidate is a reason good enough for not trying to embarrass yourself and your family for me

 

[Old1812]

Does anyone have any ideas for possible wives for Charles VIII? Anne of Brittany is married to Prince Edward (there's probably going to be war over this), and the HRE is allied with England against France.

 

[Old1812]

Would he though? Given the environment he's likely raised in

You're probably right, but as Zulfurium's TL has shown, the Reformation was a strange thing, and could have gone in many different directions.

Not having any territory when your brother/cousin had a considerable powerbase there and is the family candidate is a reason good enough for not trying to embarrass yourself and your family for me

Very true, it would likely be a disaster, but could get the support of the Catholic nobles?

 

[VVD0D95]

You're probably right, but as Zulfurium's TL has shown, the Reformation was a strange thing, and could have gone in many different directions.

Very true, it would likely be a disaster, but could get the support of the Catholic nobles?

Indeed very true

 

[isabella]

Does anyone have any ideas for possible wives for Charles VIII? Anne of Brittany is married to Prince Edward (there's probably going to be war over this), and the HRE is allied with England against France.

Someone from Navarre maybe? Or some maternal cousin:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bianca_Maria_Sforza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Sforza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_of_Savoy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_de_Luxembourg

Navarre’s option will be Charles’ paternal first cousin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Navarre (I think she will be the best match for him)

 

[kasumigenx]

Someone from Navarre maybe? Or some maternal cousin:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bianca_Maria_Sforza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Sforza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_of_Savoy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_de_Luxembourg

Navarre’s option will be Charles’ paternal first cousin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Navarre (I think she will be the best match for him)

Yes, Catherine of Navarre marrying Charles would mean he would have kids sooner.