The WRE should have superiority over the barbarians by virtue of greater organization of the state(greater control over the countryside,better logistics and military organization).Unlike the later medieval period,the barbarians are generally unable to maintain control over a large tract of territory if they lose a major battle,this just shows how weak their control over the countryside is.
From Exile to Triumph: a Western Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Flavius Iulius Nepos
- Start date
That s why I dedicated so many updates to the stabilisation of Italy instead of just going to the part where the Romans smash everything. Such slow recovery will allow them to properly implement the needed reforms to each province of the empire while exploring the local realities.
Of course, I was more referring about lands and resources available to a single ruler rather than prestige. Not even an empire reduced to Italy only, will be able to delete the force of attraction that was Rome and its history.
About the ere, as I said in a previous post this timeline will quickly become a story about both empires. Therefore it s not really probable to see an eastern Roman screw here ( but I am willing to change idea, if enough readers prefer this option), like it was OTL.
Everything will depend on the leadership of both empires and on the internal changes that will occur during the timeline.
I agree with the threat posed by eastern populations that could invade Italy through Pannonia but I don t want to spoiler much here about the goths and friends. We will see how long this deal can last...
You touched an interesting point with Venice. I can only say at the moment that it’s fate has not been decided yet, so I would gladly accept any suggestion, however if possible I would like to avoid the total decline of Aquileia and Ravenna ( I don’t know exactly if the last one is feasible considering the problem you mentioned that will hit the city).
Finally about the new updates, I can say that I already know the contents of the next updates (and some of them will really give some sprint to the story), the problem is the time necessary to write them. Considering that I m planning to continue this TL for at least 3 century ( and maybe in the future I could start a new story), I think that soon I will need to stop with the single year update (barring exceptional periods).
I was more referring about territory and resources available. But you’re right, this kingdoms are still young creations with weak control over the territory and soon you will see an example of it.
About Ravenna: the role of the city is already reduced TTL, because doesn't have anymore Imperial capital rank. It wouldn't be the capital of the Ostrogoths, and neither the core of the Esarchate. It would be however still the headquarters of the Adriatic Classis and the harbour of most of the Padan plain which looks to Eastern routes. Hence could still prosper as commercial city. As long to keep clean and working the Fossa Augusta and the various canals and smaller rivers...
Well it could occasionally recover the status of capital, after all not every single emperor will follow the policy of his predecessor and what is done now could be undone by one of his successors. Anyway about trade there is a risk that an alternate venice (if it will ever rise, considering the different dinamics that are now affecting Venetia) could indirectly provoke a decline of trade passing through Ravenna. As you said an emperor could support ( or oppose ) such event so I will take some time to think about it, meanwhile I will also listen every opinion about this topic.
Finally I was thinking about one thing today: Apollinaris iunior and Eparchius are cousins and both descendants of the emperor Avitus. This could provide the material necessary for the rise of a faction ( let’s call it the “Gallic” faction) opposed to the imperial/eastern faction ( composed by the descendants and relatives of Procopius Anthemius). A third faction could be an italic/senatorial one. Each of these faction would support different policies, doctrines and interest (like the blue and the green in Constantinople). I still need to work on it so let me know if you like the idea and want to see it implemented or feel that it is somewhat artificial.
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So Nepos is living in Rome right now?
What is with Nepos employing all these descendants of former emperors?Isn't he afraid of them?
Now is back in Rome after some years spent between Salona and Sirmium.
About the descendants of former emperors I can just say that I like to use historical characters ( or fictional characters related to real one). However some of them ( the descendants of Procopius Anthemius) are now part of his family while eparchius is the son of the men who helped him against Odoacer so they should not represent a threat at the moment but in the future I will try to develop more interesting fictional character.
Trade routes would shift during ages by various factors, one of the reasons of the rise of Venice was being an optimal node between Italy and Germany, when the latter was a settled as civilized and productive area and where the Alps is more easy to cross. For the sixth century however Germania won't be at all an interesting market unless for gold, iron and amber, and still Roman merchants wanting to trade north of the Alps would surely privilege safer Noricum than crossing the Danube. And whatever will come from and going towards Pannonia will prefer moving across Dalmatia and Salona, from where going towards Constantinople, or towards Ravenna and Ancona then Mediolanum or Rome... Anyway is not the time to shine for the Northeast of Italy. Just there are not the right preconditions. And more than Aquileia, the major city of Venetia will likely become Patavium.
Other cities becoming Imperial capitals in the future is surely a possibility, depending by several factions (civil wars, necessity to oversee more near hot fronts, Emperors wanting to pull a Versailles to punish Rome, etc). But seems unlikely that Rome would lose her primate again or definitely - at least for certain periods - but for the Empire as it is now is the optimal choice. Prestige, position, bureaucratic machine, and the Western Patriarchate, are all good reasons to keep the Eternal City forever and ever as capital. Is not a fact of sympathy, but only of necessity and logic.
Seems also logic that political factions will rise in the Empire. Until Nepos ruled or would rule nobody would dare contest his decisions, because his reign was one of extraordinary circumstances - and the Romans would acknowledge this because, who would want a new Odoacer again? Granted, Nepos's son would be instead a reign under ordinary circumstances, or at least starting to be, because Italy plus Sicily, Dalmatia and Noricum and then Pannonia would come from a period of relative and for the time long internal peace. Hence it would be obvious political factions would rise in influencing the next Emperor. Besides with the Senate rejuvenated, and surely wanting to count again like in the past, or like in Constantinople, political activities would resume... Besides I also like to believe the first post-Odoacer senatorial generation needed to grow as well during Nepos's reign, hence is why it wasn't so operative until now...
More than Patavium I think that Verona or even Tarvisium could be considered the main city of Venetia but I will return later to this region.
Speaking about Nepos, he surely can be considered a successful emperor, so far, but I don t think that means the senators would acknowledge this and respect every single decision. They will remain loyal to him as long as they are able to prosper. It will be interesting to see the fate of the next emperors ( members of the actual dynasty or not),the rise of a stronger senate and the clash between different religious and political opinion ( an update about these topics could come after the one I’m going to write for Gaul).
Making some personal research today, I noticed when Odoacer seized power Visigoths and Burgundians seized the remnants of Roman Narbonensis, hence Massilia and Arelate and the OTL future Provence would be the only part of the WRE that Nepos didn't recovery yet. True is TTL Nepos closed both eyes after his return and the choice paid dividends, but after 20 and more years the issue may return somehow in the air. Adding also a "remember 410"... And Tolosa hold still the sacked treasury of Rome. I am not saying all of those casus belli may lead to a war: besides the Visigoths and the Burgundians are still technically acknowledged to rule in their lands, but not over OTL Provence or at least not yet. Nor the Franks in Northern Gallia due of Syagrius in the Empire.
Gaul is quite the interesting place, with two talented barbarian rulers (Clovis and Gundobald) and a third which historically should be better than the historians of the time wrote (Alaric II). And a old Emperor proved to be fairly successful in the Empire, with the addition of a barbarian Goth ruler in Pannonia which may look to West if a war will erupt in Gallia... Remains only the Kingdom of the Vandals, but they were already showing the first signals of difficulties and with the battle of Neapolis they chewed too much they could do, so they are likely off the big game generating over Gallia...
Gaul is quite the interesting place, with two talented barbarian rulers (Clovis and Gundobald) and a third which historically should be better than the historians of the time wrote (Alaric II). And a old Emperor proved to be fairly successful in the Empire, with the addition of a barbarian Goth ruler in Pannonia which may look to West if a war will erupt in Gallia... Remains only the Kingdom of the Vandals, but they were already showing the first signals of difficulties and with the battle of Neapolis they chewed too much they could do, so they are likely off the big game generating over Gallia...
Well technically Nepos recognised Euricus right to rule over Arelate at the beginning of the timeline. I don t know how much of the sacked treasury of Rome would remain at this point (after a century from the event) however if there will ever be a war between the Romans and the visigoths it will be for slightly different reasons. The question of the Frankish legitimacy will be dealt with in the next update along with the aftermath of the death of Chilpericus II.
Here I will try to make things as interesting as possible, as we could finally see for the first time the WRE actively involved in the events outside Italy. After these 2 updates we will have to return to Rome and maybe to Constantinople...
I agree, after over a century of butterflies it is likely Mohammed will never be born or if he is he will be quite different.
Really likely but not certain. As I said previously, the rise of Islam it’s really useful for narrative purpose (I have to admit that I don t know their history in details, but their presence would help to keep the story interesting). However I see that a lot of readers share this same opinion so I think that soon I will post a Poll and let you decide the fate of Islam.
What about we have a Mongol Empire-esque Arab Empire where a Genghis Khan-esque figure united the Arabs instead?
Without the religious aspect?
Definitely possible. I will add this option to the incoming Poll.
Chapter XXIII: Prelude to the war
Chapter XXIII
Italy wasn’t the only part of the Mediterranean world where events that could decide the fate of kings and peoples took place. During the last decades of the V century, Gaul faced numerous changes. Here one of the several Frankish chieftains, Clovis, undertook the road for hegemony and glory. Slowly emerging from the rest of his peers, Clovis subdued a great number of Frankish tribes under the control of his rivals, before trying to get the biggest prize available to him, Roman Gaul. In 486 AD, after defeating the Magister Militum Syagrius, Clovis ruled over the entirety of northern Gaul, and with this renewed strength (coming from the conquered territory and the few surviving “Roman”units that accepted to serve under him) he attempted to subdue the remaining internal opposition (composed by minor Frankish kings) and external minor entities. During the last decades of the century he also established relations and alliance with several different rulers. He himself married the Burgundian princess Clotilde, Chilpericus’ daughter. In 496 AD, under the pressure of his wife but more importantly after defeating the Alemanni and annexing part of their territory, King Clovis converted to Christianity, avoiding the interlude of Arianism. From this event important consequences would take place, as not only Clovis gained the complete support of the Gallo-Romans but also attracted the interest of the imperial court at Rome.
The Burgundian kingdom was another important player in the events that were shaping what once was roman Gaul. The joint rule of the four brothers proved to be unstable. After the death of king Gondioc the number of his descendants quickly shrank, with the assassination of Gundomar and later of the Patricius Chilpericus II by Gundobad. The assassination of Chilpericus worried both Clovis and Nepos, considering that the former was his son-in-law while the later was his ally. As Gundobad tried to reinforce his tie with king Alaric in order to counter the Frankish threat, both Nepos and Clovis sought the friendship of the last brother still alive: Godegisel. Threaten by Gundobad, Godegisel sought the friendship of Clovis to counter the visigothic alliance of his brother. Additionally after the assassination of Chilpericus, he received the title of Patricius ( that once belonged to his brother) from Iulius Nepos one year after the celebration of the ventennalia. With his legitimacy strengthen in the eyes of his Roman subjects, Godegisel and his portion of the kingdom slowly entered in the orbit of the empire.
The assassination of Chilpericus provided also the ground for new talks between Clovis and the Emperor. Both men were still bitter about the issue of Gaul and Syagrius, yet both men felt damaged by the recent course of events that were taking place in the kingdom of Burgundy. The recent conversion of Clovis to Nicene Christianity also favoured the easing of relations between the two men. Shortly after the elevation of Godegisel to the rank of Patricius, official negotiations resumed between Rome and Clovis, bringing to an end the period of enmity that existed previously. The Frankish king finally renounced to claim Syagrius’ head while the Romans (albeit grudgingly) acknowledged Frankish rule in Gaul. Despite not reaching any sort of alliance, the two rulers were now more prone to cooperation.
The assassination also brought some change in the military organisation of Italia Annonaria. Feeling no more safe from potential western threats, Iulius Nepos created a new military office: likewise to the situation of Venetia, he created the office of “Dux Liguria et Alpes”, based at Segusio tasked with the defence of western Italy. Subjected to the Magister Militum Praesentalis I Syagrius, he had under his control a couple of units of recent creation. Additionally two units of Burgundian origin were added to his control, with most of the men former followers of king Chilpericus II. These changes and the consequently construction of new fortifications took place during the years between the celebration of the Ventennalia and the beginning of the VI Century.
The beginning of the new century would bring several changes with it, as the Burgundian kingdom once again faced important changes while pressured by the Romans, the Franks and the Visigoths. Intentioned to avenge is father-in-law and to bring the Burgundian under its hegemony, Clovis exploited the division that existed between the two brother to attack Gundobad with the support of Godegisel. After beating him in battle he forced Gundobad to pay a tribute and provide auxiliaries for incoming wars while renouncing his alliance with Alaric II. Yet Gundobad was able to strengthen his rule with the murder of his last remaining brother, thus reuniting the Burgundian kingdom under his control. From this development both the Romans and the Visigoths lost their remaining influence over the Burgundians as the last king was now subjected to the Franks. Complete Frankish hegemony over Gaul was now entirely possible, as only the Goths of Alaric stand now on their way.
Italy wasn’t the only part of the Mediterranean world where events that could decide the fate of kings and peoples took place. During the last decades of the V century, Gaul faced numerous changes. Here one of the several Frankish chieftains, Clovis, undertook the road for hegemony and glory. Slowly emerging from the rest of his peers, Clovis subdued a great number of Frankish tribes under the control of his rivals, before trying to get the biggest prize available to him, Roman Gaul. In 486 AD, after defeating the Magister Militum Syagrius, Clovis ruled over the entirety of northern Gaul, and with this renewed strength (coming from the conquered territory and the few surviving “Roman”units that accepted to serve under him) he attempted to subdue the remaining internal opposition (composed by minor Frankish kings) and external minor entities. During the last decades of the century he also established relations and alliance with several different rulers. He himself married the Burgundian princess Clotilde, Chilpericus’ daughter. In 496 AD, under the pressure of his wife but more importantly after defeating the Alemanni and annexing part of their territory, King Clovis converted to Christianity, avoiding the interlude of Arianism. From this event important consequences would take place, as not only Clovis gained the complete support of the Gallo-Romans but also attracted the interest of the imperial court at Rome.
The Burgundian kingdom was another important player in the events that were shaping what once was roman Gaul. The joint rule of the four brothers proved to be unstable. After the death of king Gondioc the number of his descendants quickly shrank, with the assassination of Gundomar and later of the Patricius Chilpericus II by Gundobad. The assassination of Chilpericus worried both Clovis and Nepos, considering that the former was his son-in-law while the later was his ally. As Gundobad tried to reinforce his tie with king Alaric in order to counter the Frankish threat, both Nepos and Clovis sought the friendship of the last brother still alive: Godegisel. Threaten by Gundobad, Godegisel sought the friendship of Clovis to counter the visigothic alliance of his brother. Additionally after the assassination of Chilpericus, he received the title of Patricius ( that once belonged to his brother) from Iulius Nepos one year after the celebration of the ventennalia. With his legitimacy strengthen in the eyes of his Roman subjects, Godegisel and his portion of the kingdom slowly entered in the orbit of the empire.
The assassination of Chilpericus provided also the ground for new talks between Clovis and the Emperor. Both men were still bitter about the issue of Gaul and Syagrius, yet both men felt damaged by the recent course of events that were taking place in the kingdom of Burgundy. The recent conversion of Clovis to Nicene Christianity also favoured the easing of relations between the two men. Shortly after the elevation of Godegisel to the rank of Patricius, official negotiations resumed between Rome and Clovis, bringing to an end the period of enmity that existed previously. The Frankish king finally renounced to claim Syagrius’ head while the Romans (albeit grudgingly) acknowledged Frankish rule in Gaul. Despite not reaching any sort of alliance, the two rulers were now more prone to cooperation.
The assassination also brought some change in the military organisation of Italia Annonaria. Feeling no more safe from potential western threats, Iulius Nepos created a new military office: likewise to the situation of Venetia, he created the office of “Dux Liguria et Alpes”, based at Segusio tasked with the defence of western Italy. Subjected to the Magister Militum Praesentalis I Syagrius, he had under his control a couple of units of recent creation. Additionally two units of Burgundian origin were added to his control, with most of the men former followers of king Chilpericus II. These changes and the consequently construction of new fortifications took place during the years between the celebration of the Ventennalia and the beginning of the VI Century.
The beginning of the new century would bring several changes with it, as the Burgundian kingdom once again faced important changes while pressured by the Romans, the Franks and the Visigoths. Intentioned to avenge is father-in-law and to bring the Burgundian under its hegemony, Clovis exploited the division that existed between the two brother to attack Gundobad with the support of Godegisel. After beating him in battle he forced Gundobad to pay a tribute and provide auxiliaries for incoming wars while renouncing his alliance with Alaric II. Yet Gundobad was able to strengthen his rule with the murder of his last remaining brother, thus reuniting the Burgundian kingdom under his control. From this development both the Romans and the Visigoths lost their remaining influence over the Burgundians as the last king was now subjected to the Franks. Complete Frankish hegemony over Gaul was now entirely possible, as only the Goths of Alaric stand now on their way.
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You can also do a "Not!Islam" option where a similar religion with a different name, founder, and teachings (for starters, they might draw more of their features from Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, or schismatic sects of Christianity) develops.
Might I suggest looking at the Mullaqaat for candidates?
Imru' Al-Qais has always been a favorite of mine from the period. I would suggest starting there for a unitary figure, given his heritage as a Prince of Kindah. Antarah ibn Shaddad could serve as a general, I'd imagine. Amr ibn Kulthum actually killed Imru' Al-Qais's cousin, so that's another tie in.