If the WAllies had decided to push the Soviet Union out of Europe immediately following WW2
- Thread starter Malone
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FillyofDelphi
Banned
There's a reason the contingency plan was code named "Operation Unthinkable". While it'd almost certainly be considered a new war (as none of the powers who'd been fighting each other up to that point would still be doing so), it might just come to at least partially bleed together (quite literally) in the eyes of the population of Europe as the "Great Destruction" of their continent. You think fighting with a handful of nukes is bad? Try carpet fire-bombing and Eastern Europe going up in flames as a result
it would have been the start of a new war if it was after the brder were set and all treaties were signed.
But the Wallies were outnumbered in Europe by the Soviets almost 3:1.
It would had been bloodpath for both sides and not sure who would win. I bit doubt that Wallies would be able push Soviets back to their borders. Wallies were badly outnumbered, many remined wanted already to home and Soviets had much of combat experience.
And it would be pretty much political suiicide to Truman and Churchill/Attlee. And hardly continental Europeans, speciality Germans and Poles, would had been very satisfied with Wallies when they would begin new war when they haven't recovered from previous one.
And it would be pretty much political suiicide to Truman and Churchill/Attlee. And hardly continental Europeans, speciality Germans and Poles, would had been very satisfied with Wallies when they would begin new war when they haven't recovered from previous one.
Problem for the Soviets was that by mid-1945 they were out of manpower. The United States on the other hand had plenty of it.
by the way, how far is 'out of Europe'. Theoretically Europe stretches east to the Ural mountains so Moscow as well as Stalingrad still fall into that boundaries. Does it mean for Russia not having any territorial claims other than the borders of 1937? Independence for Letland, Eastland, Lithowenia and a settlement for Königsberg/Kanilingrad? Or multi-party elections in all countries east of Berlin? And what about the Comunist resistance turned political party in France and Italy?
Who would lead such an operation. I’m not sure Eisenhower is up for the job. Patton and MacArthur both make me cringe. None of the English seem up to the task (ignoring the fact that the Americans would have a collective stoke about that idea)?
Likewise I cannot imagine the Wallies allowing a German anywhere near that job.
Likewise I cannot imagine the Wallies allowing a German anywhere near that job.
In 1945 USSR was out of manpower. Those 12.000.000 men's were literally last soldiers of USSR.
Not to mention didn't the US prepare millions of troops around that time for an eventual invasion of Japan? They could have diverted them back to Europe once Japan was out of the picture.
I agree the continental Europeans wouldn't have been keen for more fighting but I do wonder if by the early 50's under the Iron curtain some had wished the Russian were pushed out of Eastern Europe?
But how could this have been sold to the public of both Britain & the U.S.? After all, they'd in 1945 IOTL
had been hearing for almost 4 years about the gallant Russian people & army, & what a wonderful
place the new Russia was. I very much doubt they would have just turned on a dime against Russia.
had been hearing for almost 4 years about the gallant Russian people & army, & what a wonderful
place the new Russia was. I very much doubt they would have just turned on a dime against Russia.
Propaganda was very strong back then. If the public were told Stalin was really the next Hitler/Tojo they'd have agreed to finish the job in Europe.
The question is if that job took many more years then yes even with propaganda you'd have home-front issues. However a relatively quick war with most of the deaths being continentals in Europe, could have been sold at that time to the Americans at least.
Good points Mitchell. The problem is, I doubt that a Russia- Western Allies War in 1945 would have been a quick affair. Nor would it have been cheap.
Tovarich
Banned
Don't worry chaps, it'll all be over by Christmas.
We mean it this time, there's only 12million of 'em.
The only way I see it being quick-er would be depending on the impact that the atomic weapons would make?
That's 12 million exhausted men with no more material backing or support from the US and the UK.
The Russians fought heartily when they were defending their own home but as we saw in Finland when they were fighting a war of conquest themselves they had a different will.
Sure the Americans and Brits wanted to go home but the Russian didn't too?
But re the A-Bomb- I believe in July/August 1945 IOTL the US possessed very few of them- about 3, 2 of which were of course ear-marked for Japan. Could one A-bomb have defeated Russia? Probably if it had been dropped on Moscow(& killed Stalin)but I'm sure neither we nor Britain possessed bombers with the range to get there. (And of course Britain didn't have any A-bombs @ all).
Uh, no. Americans were not willing to fight the actual Hitler/Tojo until Pearl Harbor. "Finishing the job" in 1945 meant finishing off the Axis, not (even for the great majority of anti-Communists) starting a new war with "our Soviet ally." Support even for containing the USSR was rather slow to develop in OTL, in the absence of such an invasion.
Indeed, the pressure in 1945, far from being for a new war, was to demobilize much faster than the US government wanted to do. There were demonstrations to "bring the boy home"--including some by troops themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post–World_War_II_demobilization_strikes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demobilization_of_United_States_armed_forces_after_World_War_II
So far I've been mainly talking about the US but western Europe would be even more violently opposed to the idea. In France the PCF got 26 percent of the vote and was the largest party. In Italy the Communists and Socialists combined got 39 percent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_general_election,_1946 and while not all Socialists shared party leader Nenni's pro-Communist (at the time) views, all of them would be opposed to starting a new war--as would most Christian Democrats and others. With Communists in the governments, controlling the major trade unions (including those involved in military production), with military experience from the Resistance, the US would face a civil war in western Europe if it tried this. As for the UK, Churchill would have to make himself dictator and throw the entire Labour Party in jail to do something like this; and if he didn't invade immediately (which he couldn't do anyway because neither Truman nor any other conceivable US president, even the most anti-Communist ones conceivable would approve) once Attlee gets into power, certainly he isn't going to do it.
Virtually the only people who said there was a possibility of a new world war started by the Western Allies against the USSR were in fact the Communists. There were some people who were arguing that the US should take a harder line against the USSR but they dismissed as contemptible Communist slander any notion that they favored going to war with the Soviets.
The whole idea is so politically impossible in 1945 that discussions of the military strength of the two sides is almost irrelevant. (Remember that it was not some left-wing magazine but Henry Luce's Life which in 1943 described the Russians as "one hell of a people" who "look like Americans, dress like Americans, and think like Americans" and described the NKVD as a "national police similar to the FBI" with the job of "tracking down traitors"... https://books.google.com/books?id=hS37BjbOMmAC&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219)
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You know there is one POD that triggers this: some crazy Trotskyite or ultra-Leninist with deep Communist ties who decides to pull a Gavrilo Princip on FDR shortly after the election before his death.
Then it’s goodnight Moscow.
Then it’s goodnight Moscow.
Tovarich
Banned
Not when they were ploughing through Germany they didn't, because fighting an aggressor is not viewed as a war of conquest.
And if the Wallies suddenly turn on the attack they will be seen as the aggressor alright, because that would literally be true.
No.