AHC: Dharmic South Asia ? -

[Srihari14]

In modern day South Asia, People who Adhere to Dharmic Faith are already in Majority at 65 percentage, However they also have the Largest Islamic Population in the world at nearly 600 Million or 33 percentage of Muslims in the world

Thus is it possible that in South Asia the Countries of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Maldives have Population Majority of Dharmic Religions Like Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism

Could Afghanistan Transform Into the Gate Keeper of a Hindu India

Could Failed Islamic Conquest of Afghanistan, Sindh and Western Punjab accomplish this or failed Turkic conquest of India accomplish this?

The Pod is after 1 CE

EDIT- The Pod is After the Birth Of Islam

 

[Salvador79]

PoD after 1 CE?
I'd go for No Islam as the no-brainer then.
There are plenty of other options, but neither of them is as easy as this one. I highly doubt that Christianity or Zoroastrianism or any other non-dharmic proseltyising religion (Zoroastrianism isn't really that proselytising, I just put it in there for geographical proximity) would have made the kind of inroads Islam made into India if there was no Islam.

 

[Srihari14]

PoD after 1 CE?
I'd go for No Islam as the no-brainer then.
There are plenty of other options, but neither of them is as easy as this one. I highly doubt that Christianity or Zoroastrianism or any other non-dharmic proseltyising religion (Zoroastrianism isn't really that proselytising, I just put it in there for geographical proximity) would have made the kind of inroads Islam made into India if there was no Islam.

well thats the easy way to do it, But I imagined Buddhism and Hinduism Might become stronger due to some PODs, I also wanted Afghanistan to become like Anatolia Or France of India, where Islam expanded the farthest

 

[Salvador79]

So, you really want a PoD after, say, 700 CE? That is, with Islam and with a Muslim conquest of Iran and the subsequent budding of the concept of the Indian Ocean as a Muslim lake?

I don't know how plausible this is, but how is this for a start:
Have Harsha establish a lasting dynasty and keep this strong and going for one or two centuries, and have this empire maintain friendly ties with the Göktürks, and give the Göktürks greater immunity against Chinese divide-and-rule policies, perhaps allowing them a degree of stability like that of the Khazars. Let Buddhism grow deeper roots among the Göktürks. Forge a tripartite entente cordiale between Harsha's empire, the Göktürks, and the Tibetan Empire against the hammer-and-anvil situation between Tang and the Caliphate. Let some philosopher, preferrably from a hybrid area like Kashmir or Afghanistan, formulate what keeps their civilization together and makes it special and superior to both Chinese and Muslims. Let all three allied polities apply some version of corollary of such a thought in their political make-up.
Gets you as far as the 9th century at best, laying a different groundwork in both the subcontinent and Central Asia. Don't know if this is flawed and how, and even if it isn't, how much it's gonna help in the long term.

 

[Srihari14]

So, you really want a PoD after, say, 700 CE? That is, with Islam and with a Muslim conquest of Iran and the subsequent budding of the concept of the Indian Ocean as a Muslim lake?

I don't know how plausible this is, but how is this for a start:
Have Harsha establish a lasting dynasty and keep this strong and going for one or two centuries, and have this empire maintain friendly ties with the Göktürks, and give the Göktürks greater immunity against Chinese divide-and-rule policies, perhaps allowing them a degree of stability like that of the Khazars. Let Buddhism grow deeper roots among the Göktürks. Forge a tripartite entente cordiale between Harsha's empire, the Göktürks, and the Tibetan Empire against the hammer-and-anvil situation between Tang and the Caliphate. Let some philosopher, preferrably from a hybrid area like Kashmir or Afghanistan, formulate what keeps their civilization together and makes it special and superior to both Chinese and Muslims. Let all three allied polities apply some version of corollary of such a thought in their political make-up.
Gets you as far as the 9th century at best, laying a different groundwork in both the subcontinent and Central Asia. Don't know if this is flawed and how, and even if it isn't, how much it's gonna help in the long term.

That is a good suggestion, but does require too many things to fall in place
how likely is it that Afghans unite and fight against the Islamic conquest

 

[Salvador79]

That is a good suggestion, but does require too many things to fall in place
how likely is it that Afghans unite and fight against the Islamic conquest

Unlikely. Their geography lends itself to division.. The only polity which could bridge this would be a nomadic-dominated one, so perhaps one which comes from the North (like the Hephtalites or Kidarites), but that wouldn't necessarily be Dharmic and not necessarily be long-lasting and stable, either. (Unless I'm pulling the Göktürks out of the hat again.)
Problem is, any nomadic empire which control Afghanistan and the mountain passes is likely to be attracted by India's wealth and thus not concentrate on playing the gatekeeper against Islam, and instead go pillaging and conquering across Northern India.

 

[Srihari14]

Unlikely. Their geography lends itself to division.. The only polity which could bridge this would be a nomadic-dominated one, so perhaps one which comes from the North (like the Hephtalites or Kidarites), but that wouldn't necessarily be Dharmic and not necessarily be long-lasting and stable, either. (Unless I'm pulling the Göktürks out of the hat again.)
Problem is, any nomadic empire which control Afghanistan and the mountain passes is likely to be attracted by India's wealth and thus not concentrate on playing the gatekeeper against Islam, and instead go pillaging and conquering across Northern India.

So how about this, Harsha Empire conquer Afghanistan and establish a Pan Hindu-Buddhist sentiment, thus when Islamic invasion of Afghanistan begins, we could see all of India comming together like a Indian Crusade

 

[Salvador79]

That Indian crusade would need more... something institutional, tooo...

 

[Srihari14]

That Indian crusade would need more... something institutional, tooo...

Yes, true about that, so is there really no way that Afghanistan could remain Hindu - Buddhist ?

 

[Salvador79]

Yes, true about that, so is there really no way that Afghanistan could remain Hindu - Buddhist ?

Oh, I'm sure there is. But probably not by itself: a staunchly Buddhist Central Asia (at least Sogdia and the Tarim Basin, in the best case the wide steppe, too), including keeping the Muslims out of Khwarezmia, would certainly help. This is not far from OTL, but to tip the balance this way and keep the Silk Road out of Muslim control does require something. You need to weaken the Caliphates on a general level across Asia, or have them turn somewhere else (which is less likely than having them weakened) for Afghanistan to be able to remain Hindu-Buddhist, too.

 

[Srihari14]

Oh, I'm sure there is. But probably not by itself: a staunchly Buddhist Central Asia (at least Sogdia and the Tarim Basin, in the best case the wide steppe, too), including keeping the Muslims out of Khwarezmia, would certainly help. This is not far from OTL, but to tip the balance this way and keep the Silk Road out of Muslim control does require something. You need to weaken the Caliphates on a general level across Asia, or have them turn somewhere else (which is less likely than having them weakened) for Afghanistan to be able to remain Hindu-Buddhist, too.

So Islamic domination of silk road must be avoided
Also, what do you think are the effects of a dharmic south Asia and in particular a dharmic Afghanistan

 

[Salvador79]

So Islamic domination of silk road must be avoided
Also, what do you think are the effects of a dharmic south Asia and in particular a dharmic Afghanistan

What kind of effects are you thinking about? Cultural? Political? Socio-economic? Military? And on whom?

 

[Srihari14]

What kind of effects are you thinking about? Cultural? Political? Socio-economic? Military? And on whom?

Effects on India and Afghanistan of a Dharmic South Asia on Cultural and Political as well as socio economic and Military

also Islamic world would be very different due to lack of Sufism

 

[Salvador79]

Effects on India and Afghanistan of a Dharmic South Asia on Cultural and Political as well as socio economic and Military

also Islamic world would be very different due to lack of Sufism

To the extent that bhakti practices mirrored Islamic influence, this might be less pronounced. Buddhism is the main profiteer, though, for it was Buddhist regions which converted most frequently to Islam. Vigorous Indian Buddhism would have spawned new schools, which in turn would have reached new places beyond the Indosphere maybe.
But I'm no expert on medieval India really...

 

[Srihari14]

To the extent that bhakti practices mirrored Islamic influence, this might be less pronounced. Buddhism is the main profiteer, though, for it was Buddhist regions which converted most frequently to Islam. Vigorous Indian Buddhism would have spawned new schools, which in turn would have reached new places beyond the Indosphere maybe.
But I'm no expert on medieval India really...

India would be wildly different than its know, and without Sufism, middle east might also be different, Afghans might even have siege mentality due to constant muslim invasions, Hindus has a whole would be better off as alot of their religious sites were destroyed by Muslims, Buddhism would be larger in India, but still decline, there will be no Sikhism as it emerged out of Hindu and Islamic contact, India might have alot more vegetarians than it has now
Indonesia might also be more buddhist and hindu than its in OTL

 

[I'tikaf]

India would be wildly different than its know, and without Sufism, middle east might also be different, Afghans might even have siege mentality due to constant muslim invasions, Hindus has a whole would be better off as alot of their religious sites were destroyed by Muslims, Buddhism would be larger in India, but still decline, there will be no Sikhism as it emerged out of Hindu and Islamic contact, India might have alot more vegetarians than it has now
Indonesia might also be more buddhist and hindu than its in OTL

Sufism did not originate from India, in fact it had already emerged by the 7th and 8th centuries with figures like Rabia'h al-adawiyyah being important early figures within the movement.

 

[Srihari14]

Sufism did not originate from India, in fact it had already emerged by the 7th and 8th centuries with figures like Rabia'h al-adawiyyah being important early figures within the movement.

Sufism did not originate in India, but India was one of the main Propagators of it due to pre existing Buddhist influence( or so I have read )

 

[I'tikaf]

Sufism did not originate in India, but India was one of the main Propagators of it due to pre existing Buddhist influence( or so I have read )

Yes, it was an important propagator but so was (equally) Yemen. Yemen had it's own Sufi tradition that through overseas trade routes would spread Islam throughout the coast of East Africa as well as Southeast Asia. Many Sufi Saints and for that matter Monarch's or Islamic Scholars could (and still can) trace their origins to Hadhramaut in Yemen.

 

[Srihari14]

Yes, it was an important propagator but so was (equally) Yemen. Yemen had it's own Sufi tradition that through overseas trade routes would spread Islam throughout the coast of East Africa as well as Southeast Asia. Many Sufi Saints and for that matter Monarch's or Islamic Scholars could (and still can) trace their origins to Hadhramaut in Yemen.

Well. I dont think I knew that, either way, It seems the effects on South Asia seem really great, what do you think some effects could be in South Asia and South East Asia

 

[Gloss]

Why not just have Pakistan be reconquered post Umayyads rather than have a conquest of Afghanistan? I'm not sure of this idea that invasion from Afghanistan are inevitable or that going from there you are inevitably going to get widespread Islam, without the conversion of Bengal the islamic community would be reduced by 1/3 already(historically speaking)

Edit: NVM, apparently Afghanistan is considered South Asian, I wouldn't personally put it there for various reasons, plus OP doesn't seem even particularly interested on it specifically.