Not My Heifer Brainstorm (Results of Alternate Indo-European Migrations)

I hadn't thought much about the fate of the Yeniseians, but if I can get my hands on a decent reconstruction of Proto-Yeniseian with enough roots to construct names for people, places, and institutions in the timeline (I shouldn't need more than 1,000 roots) then I think that it could be very interesting to play with them ITTL.

Finding proper Yeniseian stuff of any kind is very difficult, but I delved pretty far into what Ketology there is on the internet to dig stuff up for my own work. Beware, a huge amount of Proto-Yeniseian reconstructions fill gaps in with other, only vaguely related alternatives(Proto-North-Caucasian, Finno-Urgric or even Basque!) whenever a clear origin cannot be defined. From the entire recorded Ket vocabulary, the only confirmed borrowings are from Russian, some reindeer-herding terminology from the Yakut, and older borrowings directly from Old Turkic or Sogdian. Although physical genetic links are closest to Native Americans, Samoyedic and Caucasian peoples, their origin is incredibly confusing for anthropologists. Current debates appear to be that they might have migrated from the south, east, north or simply been in Siberia for a very, very long time. Thankfully, the Ket almost infamously refuse to adopt words for modern objects from Russian, and the language isn't very diluted in that respect. Unfortunately, it appears that the entire study of Yeniseian languages(especially their origin) is one-third meticulously figuring out how Ket's three different, tiny, barely-intelligible dialects all fit together, one-third trying to understand any connections whatsoever established between the Yeniseian remnants and any other language groups, and finally one-third a desperate attempt to figure out Ket's relative languages from nothing but 17th-century Siberian travel guides and yasak taxation records.

In general, I even reacheda point where I was searching any reference whatsoever to their Protolanguage, and after searching for several weeks this is all that I myself managed to find. I can't guarantee as many as 1,000 roots- and you may have to work backwards from Ket if you're desperate- but this is as much as exists accessibly:

http://wals.info/languoid/lect/wals_code_ket
(Grammatical identifiers for Ket itself. Not terribly useful for at-a-glance study.)

http://wold.clld.org/vocabulary/18
(An entire vocabulary of the Ket language, usefully showing loanwords. If you can't find a basic PY root for a common word, fall back on this.)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41928405?newaccount=true&read-now=1&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
(JSTOR ACCOUNT REQUIRED. Really useful as a thorough analysis of known reconstructed PY words. Also shows most of the issues with other reconstructions using other language groups.)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NHnNpR886ToC&lpg=PA71&ots=el5hLoZ99M&dq=starostin 1982&pg=PA70#v=onepage&q=starostin 1982&f=false
(A listing of at least 4 pages of reconstructions and material to work with, until the preview ends at page 75.)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gumc8Y93fmkC&lpg=PA11&ots=RBgrZC4Uq9&dq=werner 1990 yeniseian&pg=PA202#v=onepage&q=werner 1990 yeniseian&f=false
(The primary publication by Edward J Vadja, the most prominent English-language Ketologist and proponent of the Dene-Yeniseian hypothesis. Excellent summaries of previous research into Ket's origins and history.)

EDIT: If you want to know Ket's language structure or background in general, watch this rather lengthy recorded talk:

In terms of material, that's about it. I don't have the time to discuss your other points right now, but if anyone whatsoever wants to do something with the Ket, Yeniseians or something similar(the Dingling and Jie of the pre-Mongol East asian steppes were probably Yeniseian), these can be as good a resource as any.
 
In my above post, I talked about the possibility of Indo-European migrations onto the Iranian Plateau via Azerbaijan could trigger the migrations of Mannaeans, Gutians, and Kassites at a time when Semites were making their first incursions into Mesopotamia, which could butterfly the Semitic presence in Mesopotamia altogether while the a hegemonic Sumerian city-state subjugated it’s fellows and plays the various unrelated tribes off of each other to gain control of Upper Mesopotamia. It was just a thought of course, nothing is set in stone.

Ah, I see. Even then, however, it seems that the possible IndoEuro-Sumerian struggle over (at least Upper) Mesopotamia will be accompanied by plenty of third-party peoples of uncertain loyalty, and religion might be a tool, or a cover for more useful tools, to enlist these people or factions of them. At the very least, religion may be used to encourage intra-group cohesion within the Indo-Europeans. The Rig Veda contains references to clashes with "enemy" and "barbarian" peoples that the Aryans encountered on their migrations, and portrays such struggle as being one of order against chaos, religion against irreligion, social and individual fortitude against an undisciplined mess. The rhetoric is superficially similar to that used by the Zhou Dynasty during its conquest of the Shang...

I guess the reason I'm pursuing this line of thinking is because I want some early Indo-European dynasty to explicitly connect its rise with the will of Indra (Indar?) and create an alternate Mandate of Heaven :p
 
Is there a definable means by which we know or assume the IE migrations went toward any single direction? It seems the IE migration into the Mid East was already robust...
 
In my above post, I talked about the possibility of Indo-European migrations onto the Iranian Plateau via Azerbaijan could trigger the migrations of Mannaeans, Gutians, and Kassites at a time when Semites were making their first incursions into Mesopotamia, which could butterfly the Semitic presence in Mesopotamia altogether while the a hegemonic Sumerian city-state subjugated it’s fellows and plays the various unrelated tribes off of each other to gain control of Upper Mesopotamia. It was just a thought of course, nothing is set in stone.

I believe that it is considered more plausible that the Semitic populace or contingent within Iraq predated much of the Sumerian peoples. This is evident by how early we have Sumerian king lists referencing certain rulers of the far past having Semitic names for various animals or phenomena. The concept is, the Sumerian speakers arrived to the lower Iraq valley inhabited by various peoples, some of which included the ancient farmers and pastoralists that make up the early to mid agricultural revolution in the region. This too, would have included Semitic groups likely we assume already en vogue across Iraq among Sumerians, south of them, north of them and west of them.

Where the Sumerians arose from, I would suspect an origin within the Zagros mountain ranges or the Caspian Sea. This follows similar incursions taken by many groups prior to the Medians. That is, groups from the mountains pushing toward agriculturalist settlements in the Iraqi floodplains. IE as we know took similar routes into the region. The region of both Hatti and Mitanni show this, as does the later Cimmerians and Scythians.
 
Is there a definable means by which we know or assume the IE migrations went toward any single direction? It seems the IE migration into the Mid East was already robust...

The Indo-European migration into the Middle East could be argued to to be considerably less significant than the migration into Europe, as it (a) occurred at a later period, (b) did not happen in as many waves (Anatolian, Paleo-Balkan, and Northwest IE vs. Indo-Iranian), (c) happened at a later time, and (d) took a different route than I want to ITTL. For the timeline, the bulk of Indo-European migration will be into the Middle East and Central Asia.

I believe that it is considered more plausible that the Semitic populace or contingent within Iraq predated much of the Sumerian peoples. This is evident by how early we have Sumerian king lists referencing certain rulers of the far past having Semitic names for various animals or phenomena. The concept is, the Sumerian speakers arrived to the lower Iraq valley inhabited by various peoples, some of which included the ancient farmers and pastoralists that make up the early to mid agricultural revolution in the region. This too, would have included Semitic groups likely we assume already en vogue across Iraq among Sumerians, south of them, north of them and west of them.

Where the Sumerians arose from, I would suspect an origin within the Zagros mountain ranges or the Caspian Sea. This follows similar incursions taken by many groups prior to the Medians. That is, groups from the mountains pushing toward agriculturalist settlements in the Iraqi floodplains. IE as we know took similar routes into the region. The region of both Hatti and Mitanni show this, as does the later Cimmerians and Scythians.

To my knowledge, there were no Hattian, Cimmerian, or Scythian migrations into Mesopotamia, and so I’m not sure what you mean here. Maybe I’m misunderstanding. Also, I would be interested in seeing what information you base your opinion off of, because everything I have read has suggested that the idea that the Sumerians migrated from elsewhere has been discredited and that they were a local development, probably to some degree or another since before the Persian Gulf had entirely flooded.

I have seen it alluded to in some of my research that Semites might have been in Mesopotamia for some time, but just because Semitic names and words appear in Sumerian from an early date does not mean that Sumerian was being layered atop a Semitic substratum, and there is considerable evidence in Sumerian, Elamite, and Akkadian that all three languages were replacing an older group of languages in the region that made extensive use of reduplication, i.e. “banana languages” (names like Akaka, Agugu, Šatiti, etc.).

Even if the Semites were an earlier indigenous group in Upper Mesopotamia, I’m not sure why they couldn’t be assimilated to Gutian/Mannaean/Kassite-speaking peoples during the 3rd millennium before later assimilating to Indo-Europeans in the 2nd millennium. I mean, I know you didn’t say that, but an earlier post had said something about the alleged demographic advantage of Semites, which might also be offset by the upset of the balance of power from the migration of these other groups and the expansion of an imperialist Sumerian state.
 
Ah, I see. Even then, however, it seems that the possible IndoEuro-Sumerian struggle over (at least Upper) Mesopotamia will be accompanied by plenty of third-party peoples of uncertain loyalty, and religion might be a tool, or a cover for more useful tools, to enlist these people or factions of them. At the very least, religion may be used to encourage intra-group cohesion within the Indo-Europeans. The Rig Veda contains references to clashes with "enemy" and "barbarian" peoples that the Aryans encountered on their migrations, and portrays such struggle as being one of order against chaos, religion against irreligion, social and individual fortitude against an undisciplined mess. The rhetoric is superficially similar to that used by the Zhou Dynasty during its conquest of the Shang...

I guess the reason I'm pursuing this line of thinking is because I want some early Indo-European dynasty to explicitly connect its rise with the will of Indra (Indar?) and create an alternate Mandate of Heaven :p

I forgot to reply to this because I am an ass. Now, this is an interesting idea, but I think that the situation differs here just a little bit.

I had read some suggestions that the Indus Valley Civilization was already in a period of serious decline by the time that the Aryans arrived on the scene. The situation I had imagined for the Indo-Europeanization of Mesopotamia would involve their being invited to topple an imperialistic, Neo-Sumerian regime, probably by a Gutian kingdom in Upper Mesopotamia that had lost control of Lower Mesopotamia after a sort of Sumerian “Philip” wrests control of it from them. To give you a better idea of the series of events I had imagined:

1. Indo-European migration into Azerbaijan upsets the balance of power in Northwest Iran, causing migrations into Upper Mesopotamia beginning around 2700 BCE.
2. A Sumerian city-state plays the unorganized and unrelated northern tribes to its advantage to gain hegemony over Lower Mesopotamia. This might be a “league” in a more Hellenistic sense, with a king ruling over various autonomous city-states, or it might just be an outright theocratic, absolutist monarchy. Idk. This process would occur around 2600 BCE.
3. Gutians win out in Upper Mesopotamia as the dominant ethnic group and swarm a decadent and declining Sumerian state by 2350 BCE.
4. Sumerian “Philip” throws off Gutian control circa 2000 BCE and subjugates most of Lower Mesopotamia and part of “Elam” (Susa, specifically) as well as Dilmun. He sets up a more democratic system, with choosing his heirs (still from within his own family) based on merit, and sets up a congress for the Sumerian city-states with himself and his heirs as overseers. This system collapses in about 80 years.
5. Gutians ally with Simaški (one of the Elamite kingdoms of the Iranian Plateau) and invite Indo-Europeans to invade Mesopotamia and destroy Sumer, probably in the 20th century BCE. This allows the Gutians to get rid of their old enemy, and the Simaškians to be able to siphon off Indo-European migration into Mesopotamia rather than their own country.

So, in this scenario, the Indo-Europeans will enter Mesopotamia as barbarian conquerors and mercenaries of organized states. An earlier myth I had devised by this same group of Indo-Europeans would deal with the likely Proto-Circassian-speaking Maykop Culture, which they would remember as decadent and hedonistic, and claim that their men were cuckolds who employed them as mercenaries and either allowed their warriors to make love to the sex-addicted wives they couldn’t satisfy (think Kwenthrith and Ecbert in Vikings) or were voyeuristic fetishists who took pleasure in watching their warriors defile their women. Either way, the men of the Maykop Culture from this point of view would be without honor, and the story would go that their wives conspired with the Indo-Europeans to throw off their pathetic husbands.

Maybe the Sumerians wouldn’t be remembered this way (perhaps more as tyrannical kings who worshipped a god of trickery), but the Gutians, at whose invitation they invaded Mesopotamia, probably would. Both the Gutians and the even more distant Maykop Culture would serve as lessons in the value of austerity and against the vices of decadence and hedonism. Indra of course would not play a role here, since he was picked up in Central Asia, probably from the BMAC, or at least not at first. It would be interesting to see a caste system develop in Mesopotamia however. I have heard it suggested that the caste system was developed as a means of maintaining ethnic purity in a diverse place, and Mesopotamia would already be home to Gutians, Mannaeans, Kassites, Sumerians, some Semites, and Indo-Europeans.
 
The Indo-European migration into the Middle East could be argued to to be considerably less significant than the migration into Europe, as it (a) occurred at a later period, (b) did not happen in as many waves (Anatolian, Paleo-Balkan, and Northwest IE vs. Indo-Iranian), (c) happened at a later time, and (d) took a different route than I want to ITTL. For the timeline, the bulk of Indo-European migration will be into the Middle East and Central Asia.



To my knowledge, there were no Hattian, Cimmerian, or Scythian migrations into Mesopotamia, and so I’m not sure what you mean here. Maybe I’m misunderstanding. Also, I would be interested in seeing what information you base your opinion off of, because everything I have read has suggested that the idea that the Sumerians migrated from elsewhere has been discredited and that they were a local development, probably to some degree or another since before the Persian Gulf had entirely flooded.

I have seen it alluded to in some of my research that Semites might have been in Mesopotamia for some time, but just because Semitic names and words appear in Sumerian from an early date does not mean that Sumerian was being layered atop a Semitic substratum, and there is considerable evidence in Sumerian, Elamite, and Akkadian that all three languages were replacing an older group of languages in the region that made extensive use of reduplication, i.e. “banana languages” (names like Akaka, Agugu, Šatiti, etc.).

Even if the Semites were an earlier indigenous group in Upper Mesopotamia, I’m not sure why they couldn’t be assimilated to Gutian/Mannaean/Kassite-speaking peoples during the 3rd millennium before later assimilating to Indo-Europeans in the 2nd millennium. I mean, I know you didn’t say that, but an earlier post had said something about the alleged demographic advantage of Semites, which might also be offset by the upset of the balance of power from the migration of these other groups and the expansion of an imperialist Sumerian state.

The migration patterns of the IE into the Mid East is numerous. The Hittites and related peoples, might have or certainly migrated toward various regions of the Mid East at a time prior to the IE migration towards Europe. The 'Hittites', the Pala, and the IE of Mitanni and unknown quantities intermingled among the peoples north and around Urartu. Later, IE migrations would come from two directions; one from the same proposed source as the Hittites, Pala, etc.. this being through the Caucasian mountains, a frequented place for nomadic incursions into the Mid East. These woudl be, the Cimmerians and Scythians, which both did reach the wider Mid East. The Cimmerians most profoundly are famed for their devastation of Uratu and its wars with Assyria. It is conceivable that without the powerful Assyrian state or the later Babylonian state, that the Cimmerians would be able to expand deeper into the Iraqi valley without the fearsome Assyrian power defending the Tigris river, Urartu for one, a major civilization of the Mid East, learned this clearly. Scythians also migrated through this pathway following closely behind the Cimmerians, to the point that it is possible the two migratory forces devastated Urartu and Anatolia at the same time or in cooperation. The Scythians however, would be contracted by the Assyrians loosely and bargained with. The Scythians woudl further remain a force in the region, though perhaps not to the extent as some of the ancient chroniclers claim, such as Herodotus, who claimed that the Scythians ruled the entirety of Asia, though it may be the case that the Scythians did form a short lived series of tributes from the major states after the fall of Assyria, especially from Lydia, Babylon and Media. The other direction, that you seem to mostly take into account, is the eastern incursion into what would become the Iranian plateau and nearby regions. Even this is somewhat questionable though, it was previously assumed that the 'Iranians' migrated through the same route as that of the Cimmerians and Scythians, though this does not account for the very ancient southern contingent that would come to form the Achaemenid Empire, that being in the region of Anshan and Persis, near to or previously part of, the Elamite homeland districts. It is more correct, in my opinion, that part of the Iranians arrived from the east, another from the route set by the Cimmerians and Scythians. In essence, connecting the IE portions from north to east through Iran at some point during the Neo-Assyrian Empire or slightly before. The question would be, how early was it that these IE termed Iranians from the eastern direction, reached the fringes and mingled with Elam? If I am not mistaken, it is believed that in the fringes of Elam, these IE had already made itself settled among the Elamites and as we see, in a period of time, had more or less, replaced them in various sections, especially the areas east and north of the Karun river. There too, is also the question of from whence the Medes arrived, considering their placement geographically, it is plausible they arrived from the north and mingled with other eastern arrivals supplanting perhaps any number of people or mingling with them. Regardless, by the mid Neo-Assyrian Empire, except the Karun river valley and its principle city, Susa and surrounding Elamite districts (which may have already been substantially IE) everything to the east is dominated politically by what we term as IE or Iranians. Further, the north is also during later eras of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, dominated by what can be termed IE Scythians and Cimmerians, after the fall of Urartu. Further, directly following the chaos of the fall of the Neo-Assyrian and the passing of the torch once more to Babylon, the entirety of the north is dominated by IE, with Urartu seemingly non existent, perhaps pointing to similar or more intense versions of what occurred in Elam between the IE and the Urartu.

Urartu itself is interesting in that it is linked somewhat to the Mitanni, who ruled over IE in the Bronze Age. It is obvious to me, that the region is very mingled between these disparate people groups.

It is not only some early kings, the earliest kings in the Sumerian king list carry names of possible or clearly Semitic origin. The first two of Eridu for instance, Alulim and Alalngar, who were then succeeded by two kings who ruled 61,000 years but then this began the 36,000 year reign of Dumuzid, another possible Semitic name and individual. Later, we have Kullassina-bel, ('all the lords' in Akkadian and obviously Semitic) and his successor Qalibum or 'the hound' in Akkadian who himself is replaced by Zuqaqip or 'the scoprion' in Akkadian. These to me, do not necessarily represent a substratum, only that the region was quite diverse in the sense of linguistics and peoples, it was not such that an entire region was Sumerian and later replaced by the Semitics, but instead that these groups had been circulating the same areas for some time and likely even, the same cities.
 
The migration patterns of the IE into the Mid East is numerous. The Hittites and related peoples, might have or certainly migrated toward various regions of the Mid East at a time prior to the IE migration towards Europe. The 'Hittites', the Pala, and the IE of Mitanni and unknown quantities intermingled among the peoples north and around Urartu. Later, IE migrations would come from two directions; one from the same proposed source as the Hittites, Pala, etc.. this being through the Caucasian mountains, a frequented place for nomadic incursions into the Mid East. These woudl be, the Cimmerians and Scythians, which both did reach the wider Mid East. The Cimmerians most profoundly are famed for their devastation of Uratu and its wars with Assyria. It is conceivable that without the powerful Assyrian state or the later Babylonian state, that the Cimmerians would be able to expand deeper into the Iraqi valley without the fearsome Assyrian power defending the Tigris river, Urartu for one, a major civilization of the Mid East, learned this clearly. Scythians also migrated through this pathway following closely behind the Cimmerians, to the point that it is possible the two migratory forces devastated Urartu and Anatolia at the same time or in cooperation. The Scythians however, would be contracted by the Assyrians loosely and bargained with. The Scythians woudl further remain a force in the region, though perhaps not to the extent as some of the ancient chroniclers claim, such as Herodotus, who claimed that the Scythians ruled the entirety of Asia, though it may be the case that the Scythians did form a short lived series of tributes from the major states after the fall of Assyria, especially from Lydia, Babylon and Media. The other direction, that you seem to mostly take into account, is the eastern incursion into what would become the Iranian plateau and nearby regions. Even this is somewhat questionable though, it was previously assumed that the 'Iranians' migrated through the same route as that of the Cimmerians and Scythians, though this does not account for the very ancient southern contingent that would come to form the Achaemenid Empire, that being in the region of Anshan and Persis, near to or previously part of, the Elamite homeland districts. It is more correct, in my opinion, that part of the Iranians arrived from the east, another from the route set by the Cimmerians and Scythians. In essence, connecting the IE portions from north to east through Iran at some point during the Neo-Assyrian Empire or slightly before. The question would be, how early was it that these IE termed Iranians from the eastern direction, reached the fringes and mingled with Elam? If I am not mistaken, it is believed that in the fringes of Elam, these IE had already made itself settled among the Elamites and as we see, in a period of time, had more or less, replaced them in various sections, especially the areas east and north of the Karun river. There too, is also the question of from whence the Medes arrived, considering their placement geographically, it is plausible they arrived from the north and mingled with other eastern arrivals supplanting perhaps any number of people or mingling with them. Regardless, by the mid Neo-Assyrian Empire, except the Karun river valley and its principle city, Susa and surrounding Elamite districts (which may have already been substantially IE) everything to the east is dominated politically by what we term as IE or Iranians. Further, the north is also during later eras of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, dominated by what can be termed IE Scythians and Cimmerians, after the fall of Urartu. Further, directly following the chaos of the fall of the Neo-Assyrian and the passing of the torch once more to Babylon, the entirety of the north is dominated by IE, with Urartu seemingly non existent, perhaps pointing to similar or more intense versions of what occurred in Elam between the IE and the Urartu.

That was very interesting to read, but I'm going to have to ask you what your source of information here is, because my research into the matter, which included scrupulously checking up on the sources of the blog I cited on the last page (here: https://indo-european.info/ie/Indo-European), has suggested that the migration of Anatolian came down along the western coast of the Black Sea, through ancient Dacia and Thrace, which is arguably the more common route of migration via the Pontic Steppe into Anatolia (certainly the Phrygians, Thracians, and later the Celts went through Thrace). The Cimmerians seem to have invaded and settled in Anatolia by crossing through the Caucasus Mountains, sure, and the Scythians as well, although I was not aware that the Scythians settled in the Middle East as much as exacted tributes on various states to stave off raids. That's another thing that I am going to have to ask for a source on, and not because I want to argue, but because I like to assume people know things I don't, and so I would be interested to look at your sources and weigh them against my own. My sources on this have also told me that Iranian migration into the Middle East came from Transoxiana, and this research is not only looking at the genetic and archaeological evidence, but the linguistic evidence. Indo-Iranian shares a number of words that it borrowed at its earliest stages with Tocharian, although Indo-Iranian has more words from this substrate, suggesting that the two interacted with the same language to differing degrees in Central Asia. This language, to my knowledge anyways, is usually associated with the Bactria-Margiana Agricultural Complex, or the BMAC. This is also likely where the Indo-Iranians picked up some common religious concepts, like the gods Indra and Mitra, both of which feature in the Mitanni pantheon, which among other things (some loanwords and personal names) suggests that the Mitanni were ruled by a far-flung Aryan-speaking military elite that had come from Central Asia... instead of the Mitanni ruling over an IE population, as you suggested. It also sounded as though you were suggesting that the Indo-Europeanization of Elam presented a problem in terms of the traditional view that the Iranians arrived from the northeast... could you expound on that? Cuz I'm kind of confused, here. From what I have read, what we call "Elam" is kind of a misnomer for a handful of different kingdoms on the Iranian Plateau who either spoke a common language or dialects of one that were either assimilated or marginalized as the Iranians came down from the northeast, until only the southwestern kingdoms remained distinctly "Elamite" before finally being absorbed by Iranians, who preserved the language in literary form for centuries after it had stopped being spoken.

EDIT: Another point worth noting with regards to Indo-Iranian almost certainly having evolved in Central Asia is the features that it shares with Balto-Slavic and Albanian with regards to the manner of "satemization" and the RUKI rule, which suggest that the two branches of IE had a common substrate, which was likely Proto-Uralic. Let me quote the Indo-European demic diffusion model, by Carlos Quiles, which you can find here (https://indo-european.info/indo-european-demic-diffusion-model-2.pdf):

"A common Corded Ware substrate It has been argued that similarities found in Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages – like the peculiar phonetic ruki development, a similar satem trend in both groups (MeierBrügger 2003) – suggest a sort of west-east continuum between both languages, with certain features running through them (Mallory and Adams 2007). Since both Únětice (ca. 2300-1600) and Sintashta (ca. 2100-1800 BC) potential language expansions into populations with Corded Ware lineage happened at the same time, it could be argued that both communities happened to speak similar dialects that could have influenced both languages – a North-West Indo-European and a Graeco-Aryan dialect already developed quite differently – in a similar manner, and thus their similarities could be explained as a common language substrate, whether non-Indo-European, Pre-IndoEuropean, or even Indo-European. It has been classically proposed that the Mesolithic language of the Narva and Combed Pit Ware cultures is to be identified with a Uralic community, and dates ca. 4000 have been proposed for the common reconstructible Proto-Uralic language (Parpola 2012; Kortlandt 2002). Finno-Ugric has also been shown to have developed in close contact with Proto-Indo-Iranian (Kallio 2002). According to the theory presented in this paper, the R1a1a1-M417 population of the Combed Pit Ware culture expanded to the east, and then from the Contact Zone – mostly as R1a1a1b-Z645 lineages – with the Corded Ware culture to west and east Europe, so it is possible that their language was indeed Proto-Uralic. From a linguistic point of view, the characteristic palatalization of the consonant system in Proto-Uralic is compatible with the similarly transposed velar system adopted for Late Indo-European dialects by Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian speakers, thus explaining the strongest phonetic connection between these dialectally diverse Indo-European languages. Differences in the Baltic and Slavic satemization processes might point to an early split of the North-West Indo-European dialect ancestral to both, before or during its assimilation by different Uralic-speaking communities of late Corded Ware cultures. A potential connection with the Balkans Chalcolithic, the origin of the Corded Ware horizon, could also explain the potential satem influence found in Anatolian and Paleo-Balkan languages. 97 This model supports thus the reconstruction of two series of velars: the traditional reconstruction of dorsovelars and labiovelars (Lehmann 1952), which is usually ignored in common textbooks in favour of the older reconstruction of a third series of palatovelars (Bomhard 2015); and Martinet’s glottalic consonants (Gamkrelidze and Ivanov 1995). A western Corded Ware substratum could also be argued to be the origin of certain common isoglosses found between Germanic and Balto-Slavic. In terms of the “Temematic hypothesis”, Germanic and Temematic would share common western Corded Ware isoglosses, and only later would Proto-Balto-Slavic – already separated from Proto-Indo-Iranian – absorb Temematic as a substratum language (Kortlandt 2016). To further complicate the dialectal nature of Balto-Slavic, ancient samples show R1b1a1a2a2-Z2103 lineages in western Yamna migrants in Vučedol, and in east Bell Beaker populations (see above). Also, modern populations in central Europe, in regions previously occupied by the Únětice and Lusatian cultures, also show R1b1a1a2a2-Z2103 subclades. Assuming that Yamna lineages corresponded to separated clans that kept a Graeco-Aryan dialect during the western migration, their integration into a common Únětice culture could also explain the Graeco-Aryan features of Balto-Slavic that have been associated with Indo-Iranian. On the special position of Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian, regarding their rather conservative nominal case system compared to other Indo-European languages, it has been argued that languages with more second language speakers lose nominal cases (Bentz et al. 2015), which would explain the higher simplification of Late Indo-European dialects in west and south-east Europe, compared with the conservation of the original system by speakers of Uralic dialects, known for their large set of grammatical cases. On the other hand, this could also give support to the theory that Late Proto-Indo-European had in fact a simpler nominal system, derived from a still simpler one of Middle ProtoIndo-European (Adrados, Bernabé, and Mendoza 2016), whereas the Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic ones would be later innovations; however, that would need an explanation as to how Uralic speakers adopting Late Proto-Indo-European added complexity to the language, instead of simplifying it. The study of precise isoglosses connecting these languages, and their potential relation to specific Uralic proto-languages lies beyond the scope of this paper."

Urartu itself is interesting in that it is linked somewhat to the Mitanni, who ruled over IE in the Bronze Age. It is obvious to me, that the region is very mingled between these disparate people groups.

The Mitanni were Indo-Europeans ruling over a non-IE population, if I'm not mistaken. Did you make a mistake here, or did you mean to say that? Also, I have read that it is possible that by the time we here of the Kingdom of Urartu, that the Hurro-Urartian language used for the personal names of rulers and for state documents had fallen out of everyday use, which would be evidenced by the manner of attestation coupled with the apparent lack of change over time and variation within the attested documents (the kinds of variation in spelling that are found all over the place in Latin and Greek, for example).

It is not only some early kings, the earliest kings in the Sumerian king list carry names of possible or clearly Semitic origin. The first two of Eridu for instance, Alulim and Alalngar, who were then succeeded by two kings who ruled 61,000 years but then this began the 36,000 year reign of Dumuzid, another possible Semitic name and individual. Later, we have Kullassina-bel, ('all the lords' in Akkadian and obviously Semitic) and his successor Qalibum or 'the hound' in Akkadian who himself is replaced by Zuqaqip or 'the scoprion' in Akkadian. These to me, do not necessarily represent a substratum, only that the region was quite diverse in the sense of linguistics and peoples, it was not such that an entire region was Sumerian and later replaced by the Semitics, but instead that these groups had been circulating the same areas for some time and likely even, the same cities.

So, I think it's worth noting that the only attested version of the Sumerian King's List dates from a period that Sumerian had already stopped being spoken, and the version we have is a piece of court propaganda from the city of Isin. Furthermore, while I wasn't able to find any references to Alulim and Alalngar being Semitic (and that second one I really have a problem with interpreting that way, cuz it violates Semitic sound laws on its face and would, I presume, be unlikely to be Sumerianized in a document dating from a period in which Sumerian was no longer the spoken language), certainly Kullassina-bel, Qalibum, and Zuqaqip are, but... this doesn't really tell us much. These names could have been inserted at various points, and just because they are Semitic, doesn't mean that Semitic was a widely spoken language in Upper Mesopotamia from the start. Using the same reasoning, we might presume that a Hebrew has been spoken in England since at least the Medieval Period, because of the widespread occurrence of Biblical names among the upper classes.
 
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I should also stress that this thread is getting derailed. That would be why I didn't reply to a couple of comments with regards to the origin of Indo-Europeans and their historical migration patterns IOTL. The historical migrations of the Indo-Europeans after 3500 BCE are going to be butterflied, which is the entire purpose of the timeline. So, I posted this thread to discuss what people on the forum WOULD LIKE TO SEE after the new migrations take place. When I said "any and all ideas are welcome", I meant "post whatever crazy idea you can come up with and we'll see what sticks".
 
Ok... I guess I'll throw out some more ideas?

1. Semitic-speaking Sicily, Crete, and Cyprus.
2. Colonization of South Africa and Madagascar from Iran.
3. Surviving Sumerian-descendant in Socotra.
4. Indo-European Qinghai and possibly Burma.
5. Turkic Manchuria, possibly Korea.
6. Tungusic Central Asia.
7. Elamite migration into India.
8. (Partially) Austronesian Sri Lanka.
9. Japanese/Chinese/Indian colonization of Australia.

Ideas do not have to be limited to migrations of course. I had an idea regarding the early invention of the printing press as a method of printing patterns on fabric, for example.
 
Since the TL is so early, you might as well have Austronesians settle Australia too, with the coastal Aboriginals assimilated or driven inland where they might end up like the Vedda of Sri Lanka. Beats the more cliche East Asians settle Australia thing. Although no doubt major cities of Australia would have Chinese communities in time, unless the butterflies cause Southern China to remain non-Sinic.
 
In Japan you could keep the Jomon people as a major cultural force, perhaps a more well developed agricultural system could prevent the die-off they suffered by the time that the Yayoi began to arrive on the archipelago.
 
Since the TL is so early, you might as well have Austronesians settle Australia too, with the coastal Aboriginals assimilated or driven inland where they might end up like the Vedda of Sri Lanka. Beats the more cliche East Asians settle Australia thing. Although no doubt major cities of Australia would have Chinese communities in time, unless the butterflies cause Southern China to remain non-Sinic.

It was just an idea. I’m interested as to why an East Asian Australia is cliché, though. Has it been done before? An Austronesian Australia would definitely be pretty interesting, I must admit. Where do you see the most likely projection point for Austronesian settlement coming from?

On the non-Sinitic China thing, I am very interested in that possibility, but unfortunately I haven’t been able to find much material on the reconstruction of Proto-Tai-Kadai and Proto-Hmong-Mien to make some conlangs for it. We’ll see, I guess.

I see no reason at all why SA wouldn't be Bantu and Madagascar Austronesian.


How does this follow again?

You’re killing me Smalls! Lol

South Africa wasn’t Bantu until relatively recently, and the Greeks and Romans may have known about the Comoros Islands and Madagascar, either directly or indirectly. I don’t think it’s the biggest stretch in the world to get some people from Iran down there at an earlier date, considering that people from a very specific part of Borneo wound up there IOTL.

As far as a Turkic Manchuria or Korea, that could easily be the result of an alternate set of migrations fairly early on.
 
[INCOMING TEXT DUMP]

I hadn't thought much about the fate of the Yeniseians, but if I can get my hands on a decent reconstruction of Proto-Yeniseian with enough roots to construct names for people, places, and institutions in the timeline (I shouldn't need more than 1,000 roots) then I think that it could be very interesting to play with them ITTL.


I've provided as much information and reference as there basically exists on the internet, though if you want any summaries or information that's unclear from all that(it's not the easiest material to read and understand, for sure) then I can try to answer it. I've spent a long time reviewing the Ket and Yeniseians, for projects as well as simple interest. It becomes far more interesting than most people realize, especially their historical significance. You could call me a amateur Ketologist!
U1TPNS6Ekk0xZP-qecEFZpn170Eo7xwsgzSSD1EvdOrEIGx5AZaZ-uc6NshBq4CGf8eHHxAS2FSj8VhhwwOxqlKcq77MKiuBnMtm55aEfbkTa0ArlJfE7QS2JJ4y36RmUPgdrKUr
;)

Sorry I couldn't reply more earlier, though. I'll have to expand upon some of the ideas I previously proposed, as well as some new variables considered.


I also hadn't thought much about this Sumerian beer-making cake method you mention. I've heard it mentioned, but I didn't realize that it was going to be a source of interest for anyone. I suppose since the purpose of this thread is to brainstorm, nothing is definitively set in stone for the timeline as of yet, so I shouldn't be shy about sharing my ideas here. Now, I had thought a great deal about Indo-Europeans picking up on the agricultural practices of the Caucasus, as I have been entertaining the idea of an early branch breaking off and heading south, absorbing the Maykop Culture and further moving into the Kur River Valley (modern Azerbaijan). From here, the expansion would continue along the southern coast of the Caspian and also onto the Iranian Plateau, which would absorb and displace Mannaean, Kassite (probably related to Hurro-Urartians), and Gutian-speaking tribes that would migrate into Mesopotamia during the early 3rd millennium. In this situation, I thought that the Sumerian city-states might play the different groups off of each other (Mannaeans, Gutians, Kassites, and Semites) to expand their own power, perhaps with a single city-state rising as the hegemon via the use of its non-Sumerian allies to some degree. I wanted to expel the Semites from Mesopotamia entirely during this period (sort of the way the Aryans were expelled from the Iranian Plateau ITTL) and drive them into the Levant at a time when clear boundaries between East and West Semitic had not yet been drawn, so that I can play with the evolution of Semitic languages and cultures to a degree during the Bronze Age.


Beer-cake making is just a slightly unusual cultural development that could be played with and modified in a number of ways to make unique dietary and social elements. Seeing how important alcohol and food storage has been throughout history, it's unfortunate that it is underestimated and underdeveloped. Your PoD and changes made creates a situation rather amenable to doing more with a rather novel aspect of early civilization. I'm rather surprised somebody hasn't done more with it before. The ability to ferment grains into alcoholic substances and use that as a preservative for food is easily applicable here, with a sufficiently high alcohol content placing cultural significance to breadmaking, and simultaneously solving food storage issues frequently encountered among the rural and urban lower populations of early civilization. If you consider how much alcohol is a social, cultural and even spiritual phenomenon among society, being able to adapt it into early yeast usage from beer to beer-gruel to alcoholic foods would be a rather original feature of Sumerian civilization, perhaps spreading to other forms of horticulture and brewing in time. Dry goods with alcohol exist via micro-encapsulation. By allowing the yeast to ferment in the bread and rise within natural heat instead of furnaces, you maintain both the dormant yeast for rehydration(complete with nutritional value), and incidentally allow the yeast to micro-encapsulate the ethanol if oil is added. In this way, dry alcoholic goods and seasonal fermentation could be developed in Mesopotamia, and then be spread further via cultural or societal diffusion. Interesting and maybe even strange results may occur: beer sediment breadmaking, alcohol-infused dairy goods, and literal sweetbreads with sugars in bread from decomposition of alcohol with spit(sounds weird I know, but it's been done before).


In terms of Semitic development, I did have a potential idea concerning their advent, expulsion and the collapse of Old Egypt, although it's slightly roundabout. If you start getting butterflies from that early on, North African affairs have to be considered with the environment of the time. Lake Megachad still exists, and part of the reason for it's demise- beyond the cyclical Saharan rainfall shifts and modern global climate change- is overgrazing for millennia and the extirpation of grassland-maintaining species that help prevent aquifer loss and excess infiltration. The region may act as a moderately populated region native to Chadic pastoralists and able to support a diverse environment for much longer if these alterations are prevented. If they can be by lower pressures upon the lake and more efficient land use, the region could easily maintain it's endemic wildlife much longer and even support civilizations that will enable further connectivity of Central and Sub-Saharan Africa with the rest of the Old World.


If Egypt is collapsed by Indo-European and associated migrations(I would love to see how that turns out culturally) and you have Semitic or Afroasiatic peoples moving further into Africa from the Levant or Egypt itself, I wouldn't be surprised if certain Semitic peoples migrate westwards to the Megachad region and settle in this attractive region. The diseases they may bring through contact with wider Eurasian populations and more urban settlement may impact native populations in a not devastating, but negative way. If you maintain conflict between the later Afroasiatic population and the Chadic populations, it may promote further societal development while limiting overpopulation and overextension of resources. Domestic grains such as watermelons, beans, sorghum and lentils would probably be introduced and naturalized further, as they adapt well to drought and flood cycles in semi-arid climates. The further use of agriculture to help create sedentary animal husbandry could promote the formation of early state entities in the region. Most fascinating would be what ends up happening to the second Afroasiatic migration into the region. It would no doubt create unusual linguistic and cultural features as an introduced group in the region. The closest equivalent to this idea in real life would be the Na Dene cultures, particularly the Navajo and Southern Athabaskan peoples, as a secondary migration of peoples into a region populated earlier by natives of a common origin. It would be one hell of a altlang, for sure.


Now, to my knowledge, according to the blog I shared, which according to my research is a good summary of the current status of the field of Indo-European studies, the period in question is the period of Common Indo-European, or what gets called "Proto-Indo-European" for people who don't understand the distinctions between say, Indo-Hittite, Graeco-Aryan, Northwest Indo-European, etc. So, the tribes migrating into Azerbaijan and eventually Iran and Mesopotamia are speakers of Common Indo-European, i.e. Indo-European after the development of contrasts in voice (it seems that at the time Anatolian broke off, the stop series was voiceless and contrasted for gemination) and aspiration. The Botai Culture, by this time, is already being affected by the immigration of the Indo-European-speaking Afanasevo Culture, and will only continue to be so as another branch of Indo-European migrates around the top of the Caspian Sea, only to break off into separate northern, eastern, and southern branches. I imagine that whatever language the Botai peoples spoke, it was the language that forms such a heavy substratum in Tocharian as to have loaned the majority of the nominal inflection, as much of that doesn't seem to be derived from Indo-European proper. That could still happen ITTL, but the Afanasevo Culture will be reinforced by a new wave of Indo-European-speaking migrants, so the substratum influence might not be AS drastic as it was IOTL. An increase of Indo-European migration into Central Asia however could definitely see an increase in lactose tolerance as well as the importance of horses during the period, as you suggest, though. But, when you talk about Western Europe, weren't sheep and goats already common by this time, and weren't they also being milked? I would be interested in your references there, cuz if dairy production came with Indo-Europeans, then Europe might not be well-known for its cheeses, which could have some interesting effects down the line.


Although the Afanasevo appear sometime slightly later than the PoD, your surmisation is probably realistic. Although various groups of the Botai may split off or remain unassimilated, any secondary waves may influence that substratum anyway. Horse varieties could vary and spread across Central Asia earlier. Paradoxically, the use of Botai horses as stout labor, diary and milk beasts rather than for riding could lead to more sedentary or higher density settlements in Central Asia, or completely new breeds designed for riding unrelated from those of OTL. The later arrival of modern horses from the Middle East and Iran could form a social revolution in a Central Asia structured this way. Either the contemporary horses are treated differently to the Botai ones(much like taurine and zebu cattle, or even like mules, horses and donkeys), and enable a transition back into a highly mobile, even faster nomadic society no longer reliant upon seasonal encampments, or alternatively this more sedentary Central Asia uses horses to connect regions and allow massive improvements in communication. Both outcomes are simultaneously possible, too- more prosperous regions like the Amu Darya and Syr Darya reamin connected settlements, while pastoral hordes remain like IOTL across the steppes, but having larger group sizes due to more efficient Botai-style grazing and herding. One possiblity is the greater cold tolerance of the Kazakhstan-originating Botai horses becomes exaggerated when someone brings them further north, resulting in Arctic horses like the Yakutian Cattle and Yakutian Horse(which are only 800 years old).


European domesticates such as cattle, sheep and goats existed at this time, and were used for making cheese from around 8500 years ago in Southern Europe. Over the next 1000 years that would spread to Central Europe and southern Britain. The irony of the situation is that cheese-making actually discourages lactose tolerance to milk- the bacteria long since broke down most of the lactose sugars. The concentration of lactose in raw cattle milk is up to 5%, whereas in cheese it is less than 0.5%. The reason why Southern Europe is less lactose tolerant than Northern Europe is that the region never developed cheesemaking before the Indo-Europeans arrived, and thus could drink raw milk only. The Indo-Europeans used raw milk as a staple in their cattle herding, and spread this genetic heritage with them. Old European cattle breeds were used mostly for meat and labor purposes, while sheep and goat herding was dominated by meat. Herd sizes kept pastorally simply weren't statistically large enough for dairy females to be a constant reliable food source, and group sizes weren't enough that you could specialize large numbers of people to managing hage herds in forest terrain best suited to fallow herds, not dairy management. After Indo-European arrival, raw milk consumption didn't explode overnight. It only becomes even a negligible part of common diets when enough forest is cleared and manpower is gained in the Bronze Age to allow large-scale agriculture and sedentary livestock maintenance.


Also, considering that it would seem that the Corded Ware peoples were not that into sedentary agriculture prior to the advent of Indo-Europeans, it might be the case that much of Europe remains in the hunter-gatherer (with some supplementary herding) stage for awhile longer, especially after the collapse of "Old Europe" (which is a subject I meant to do more reading about today). If that is the case, then it might also be the case that Europe is more linguistically diverse for a longer period of time, or at least that the form of Finno-Ugric that is adopted in Europe is rather different than what we know today, with a lot more substratum influence. It might also be the case that a mixed language between Finno-Ugric and some other "Old European" language develops and becomes the lingua franca of a new civilization, which would make things a lot easier for me, personally. The slowed technological development in Europe could give rise to the expansion of other groups as well. I had this idea of a Semitic thalassocracy of sorts developing in the Bronze Age out of Ugarit that would colonize places like Cyprus, Crete, Sicily, and the east coast of Iberia, but one that speaks something closer to Amorite, and not West Semitic.


If you let cheesemaking spread to Northern Europe as the world warms further and it becomes more efficient, then you have absolutely no need for lactose tolerance in Europe, and the region remains primarily hunter-gatherer and deeply forested. I wouldn't guarantee a lingua franca even forms in a region as divided, diverse and wild as that. Finno-Ugric peoples could move west and south easily, but completely extinct language groups could remain in many regions(I don't know enough about that subject to tell you what exactly). The possible closest analogy IOTL is West and Southern Africa, which remained hunter-gatherer and pastoralist within relatively unmanaged terrain, and despite that large political entities and foreign trading networks formed. I love your idea for a Semitic thalassocracy, and I'd imagine they work like Arab traders did with West Africa, perhaps spurring Swahili-style trading networks across Southern Europe, and the creation of native state-like entities. Slave trading may be a very substantial feature- there's lots of divided, small and primitive tribes to take prisoners from, and a range of river valleys and natural routes to take the captives southwards for easy trade via the Mediterranean. The high strength, foraging ability and natural prowess required simply to survive in a hunter-gatherer lifestyle may make them incredibly useful elsewhere within agricultural societies. I also wouldn't rule out Turkic or other groups migrating westwards along the contiguous Eurasian Steppe during a warmer interval to settle a relatively empty Eastern Europe, especially if civilization in Anatolia, the Caucasus or Southeastern solidifies more, as trade along the Dneiper, Volga and Danube rivers becomes more important.


As a side note, any thought or consideration of butterflies or interactions of the New World?:)
 
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I meant "post whatever crazy idea you can come up with and we'll see what sticks".
A giant, Basque-speaking, empire consisting of most of mainland Europe up to the Vistula and Dniester. Like China, the Basque Empire is ruled as a series of dynasties that periodically reunify despite intermittent Warring States periods. Eventually consolidating with its core territory in the North European Plain. While the Basque Empire might be taken over eventually by Uralic migratory tribes as the Roman Empire was by Germanic tribes, these would assimilate into the Basque system. The Basque superstate also builds a great wall along the Vistula and Dniester to funnel invaders into strategic chokepoints in the Balkans.
 
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