John Neville, 1st Marquis of Montagu, fights for King Edward IV

[lolotte34]

John Neville, 1st Marquis of Montagu, remains loyal to King Edward IV during the battle of Barnet. After the victories at Barnet and Tewkesbury, John Neville becomes Lord of the North, in the place of Richard of Gloucester. He inherits the titles and property of his brother (Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick aka the Kingmaker). The betrothal of George Neville to Elizabeth of York is maintening. Anne Neville is in the custody of her uncle. A feud could emerge between John Neville and George of Clarence, concerning the inheritance of Anne Beauchamp, Countess of Warwick (the feud between Richard and George in OTL).

As a result, Richard de Gloucester decides to establish his lordship in West England and South Wales. He marries Joan Courtenay, sister of John Courtenay, 15th Earl of Devon, of whom she is a co-heiress. He becomes the real Duke of Gloucester than a disguised Duke of York.

What do you think ? Please your comments !

 

[BlueFlowwer]

I could support a Richard and Joan match. Just make sure that her brother dies suddenly and childless as well.

Richard, duke of Glouchester, later III of England b 1452 m Joan Courtenay

Issue:
Joan of Glouchester b 1475
Edward VI of England 1478
Cecily of Glouchester 1480
Richard, duke of York b 1484
Anne of Glouchester b 1487
John of Glouchester b 1490

 

[lolotte34]

I could support a Richard and Joan match. Just make sure that her brother dies suddenly and childless as well.

Richard, duke of Glouchester, later III of England b 1452 m Joan Courtenay

Issue:
Joan of Glouchester b 1475
Edward VI of England 1478
Cecily of Glouchester 1480
Richard, duke of York b 1484
Anne of Glouchester b 1487
John of Glouchester b 1490

John Courtenay, 15th Earl of Devon, commanded the left wing of the Lancastrian army. He was killed on the battlefield when his division fled. He was buried, with the other Lancastrian nobles, at Tewkesbury Abbey. He was unmarried at the time of the battle and childless, Joan was his co-heiress, according to p.318 of Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Oh? That makes it easier.

 

[JonasResende]

The question of a single Anne Neville still arises. Montagu might want her to marry someone Neville so that he can prevent the entirety of the inheritance falling into Clarence's hands...

 

[lolotte34]

The question of a single Anne Neville still arises. Montagu might want her to marry someone Neville so that he can prevent the entirety of the inheritance falling into Clarence's hands...

Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland (1456-1499) is the ideal husband. In OTL, he married on 20 February 1473, with Isabel Booth, daughter of Sir Roger Booth, esq. (1396-1497) who was the niece of Lawrence Booth, Archbishop of York, of whom he had a son (Ralph Neville, Lord Neville who died in 1498) and a daughter (Anne Neville). On 6 October 1472 Ralph Neville obtained the reversal of his father's attainder and the restoration of the greater part of his estates, and thereby became Lord Neville. On 18 April 1475, Neville was created a Knight of the Bath together with the sons of King Edward IV.
Our Anne Neville is a best match for Ralph, because she will bring him half of her mother's inheritance. Clarence can't steal all of Beauchamp's inheritance.

Anne Neville (1456-1485) marry Ralph Neville (1456-1499) on December 1472 and they have two children :
Isabel Neville b 1476.
Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmoreland, b 1480.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

And the future Edward VI can wed Margaret of Austria!

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A bunch of the Nevilles went over to the Lancastrian side OTL, so Edward IV might not be willing to allow Anne to marry a Neville. He MIGHT (apparently this idea was considered OTL but dismissed as too incendiary) marry Anne to his stepson, Lord Grey (future marquess of Dorset).

 

[lolotte34]

Richard de Gloucester épouse Joan Courtenay entre octobre 1471 et février 1472. Malgré un début difficile à cause de la mort d'Edmund Beaufort, 4ème duc de Somerset (son cousin), leur mariage est heureux. Joan le suit à chaque étape du chemin. Elle enfant neuf enfants comme sa mère:
1. Richard Plantagenet n décembre 1472
2. Joan Plantagenet b 1474
3. Edouard Plantagenet b 1476
4. Cecily Plantagenet 1478
5. Margaret Plantagenet b 1481
6. Edmund Plantagenet b 1483
7. Jean de Gloucester 1485
8. Elisabeth Plantagenet b 1487
9. George Plantagenet b 1490

 

[lolotte34]

[QUOTE = "Kellan Sullivan, poste: 17156072, membre: 67078"] Un groupe de Nevilles s'est rendu au côté Lancastrien OTL, donc Edward IV pourrait ne pas vouloir permettre à Anne d'épouser un Neville. Il pourrait (apparemment cette idée a été considérée comme OTL mais rejeté comme trop incendiaire) épouser Anne à son beau-fils, Lord Grey (futur marquis de Dorset).

C'est une bonne idée ! Je ne penserai pas à ce match avec une bonne rivalité entre Clarence et Dorset qui peut finir sur le champ de bataille avec la mort de Dorset ou de Clarence.
Merci !
Pouvez-vous me donner les références du livre ou du site Web qui mentionne la possibilité de cette proposition de mariage?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

[QUOTE = "Kellan Sullivan, poste: 17156072, membre: 67078"] Un groupe de Nevilles s'est rendu au côté Lancastrien OTL, donc Edward IV pourrait ne pas vouloir permettre à Anne d'épouser un Neville. Il pourrait (apparemment cette idée a été considérée comme OTL mais rejeté comme trop incendiaire) épouser Anne à son beau-fils, Lord Grey (futur marquis de Dorset).

C'est une bonne idée ! Je ne penserai pas à ce match avec une bonne rivalité entre Clarence et Dorset qui peut finir sur le champ de bataille avec la mort de Dorset ou de Clarence.
Merci !
Pouvez-vous me donner les références du livre ou du site Web qui mentionne la possibilité de cette proposition de mariage?

I'm afraid it might be more my understanding of it than actual fact. Liz Wydeville would be looking for a good match for her son once Anne Holland dies. Anne Neville showed up. Clarence wanted her to remain unwed so his kids would get ALL of the Warwick-Salisbury inheritance. Edward IV would've wanted to prevent THAT happening, and he only had two options: 1) Gloucester and 2) his stepson (widowed c.1474 (though some sites list Anne Holland as dying as early as 1467). If Gloucester's off the board, then his stepson is a reasonably loyal candidate to balance out Clarence.

I'm afraid though, I can't remember the source I read it in. But it probably also posed it in more of hypothetical maybes and could've. However, when Anne was widowed, Edward was tryig to negotiate for Richard to marry a foreign princess (Jeanne de Valois, OTL duchesse d'Orléans or Mary/Margaret of Scots), Richard basically went behind his brother's back and presented his own Nevillwe marriage as a fait accompli IIRC. Which means that the most loyal family member of age to marry Anne would be the future marquess of Dorset or his brother, Richard.

 

[JonasResende]

Admittedly a marriage to Dorset would probably not risk Anne Neville marrying her cousin/brother(-in-law) without a dispensation. The papal dispensation that was given was on the grounds of them being first cousins, which while accurate, they were related in the first degree (brother and sister(-in-law)) which wasn't covered. The Crowland Chronicle says that even those learned in the law were shocked at how complicated it was to try and broker a deal between George and Richard.

That said, I'm with Kellan on the possibility of Anne marrying Dorset. Between her widowing and remarrying, she (and her mom) wrote to most of Edward IV's female family - the queen and the duchesses of York, Exeter, Suffolk (even Bedford (aka Countess Rivers)) to try and get the agreement that Clarence got everything put aside. It's not unthinkable that the queen or Jacquetta would have said something along the lines of "Edward will protect your inheritance if Anne marries someone of his choosing". The duchess of Exeter wanted to be let out of her own marriage, so she'd probably have agreed to whatever Edward would've wanted if it meant that she could be let out of the deal. I'm not sure of the duchess of Suffolk, but considering her son would've been too young to marry Anne anyway, she probably would've supported it. Which leaves only the duchesses of York and Burgundy (neither of which cared much for Elizabeth Wydeville) as opposed.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

@lolotte34 I just realized something else.

Montagu was the leader of the army/militia that took the field against Edward IV, forcing he and Dickon to flee to Burgundy. So, even if he turns coat at Barnet, Edward might not be as willing to let bygones be bygones as he was the first time he took the throne.

 

[lolotte34]

@lolotte34 I just realized something else.

Montagu was the leader of the army/militia that took the field against Edward IV, forcing he and Dickon to flee to Burgundy. So, even if he turns coat at Barnet, Edward might not be as willing to let bygones be bygones as he was the first time he took the throne.

I had forgotten this. I read the books about Earl of Warwick and his brothers some time ago.

I considered my story about Edward already having his champion in the North so Richard could focus on his possessions in the West. He married Joan Courtenay, co-heiress of the Earl of Devon, to establish his lordship in the region. Since 1464, he is the governor of the Corfe castle, near Tiverton castle, in the East of Exeter.

I just reread John Neville's biography on Luminarium.org.

To what extent Neville was engaged in the intrigues of Warwick and Clarence is not clear. He certainly did not lend any open countenance to the Neville rising in Yorkshire in the summer of 1469, which went under the name of Robin of Redesdale, and his destruction of the force which Robert Hillyard or Robin of Holderness led to the gates of York and execution of its leader would no doubt confirm the confidence which Edward, who 'loved him entirely,' placed in him. On the other hand, the latter movement would appear to have been quite distinct from the other, the rebels having a grievance against the hospital of St. Leonard at York, and calling for therestoration of the earldom of Northumberland to the Percies.23 So far as is known, he made no special effort to prevent the southward march of Robin of Redesdale, which ended in the battle of Edgecote and the temporary detention of the king by Warwick. But he escaped or avoided being compromised in these latter events, and the king evidently thought that he was not fully committed to his brother's policy. The betrothal of Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of Edward, as yet without a son, to Northumberland's son George, who was forthwith (5 Jan. 1470) created Duke of Bedford, gave him an interest opposed to that of Clarence, the heir-presumptive, whom Warwick had married to his elder daughter.24

But the release and pardon of Henry Percy, whose earldom he held, perhaps made him uneasy; and, though he did not join Warwick and Clarence when the king drove them out of the country in March after the suppression of the Lincolnshire rebellion, he seems to have been compromised. He had brought no assistance to the king against the rebels, and Chastellain states25 that Edward only pardoned him on receiving the strongest assurances of repentance and future fidelity. He could not any longer be trusted with the safeguard of the royal interests in the north, and the earldom of Northumberland, with its great estates, was restored to Henry Percy, who also superseded him as warden of the east march.26 The empty title of Marquis of Montagu, 'with a pye's nest to maintain it,' only increased his resentment, and when the news of Warwick's landing reached the north in September, Montagu, who had assembled six thousand men at Pontefract, declared for king Henry and moved on Doncaster, where the king was lying.27

Montagu's desertion drove Edward out of England, and, Henry VI being restored, he was reappointed warden of the east march. But under a Lancastrian government he could not recover the earldom of Northumberland. Warwick, however, entrusted him with the defence of the north against the exiled Edward, and one of his last acts before leaving London after Edward's landing was to have a grant made to his brother of the old Percy castle of Wressel on the Yorkshire Derwent, which Jacquetta, duchess of Luxemburg, the Duke of Bedford's widow, had hitherto held as part of her dower.28 But Montagu, who was lying at Pontefract, allowed Edward in March 1471 to land in Yorkshire, enter York, and march into the midlands without molestation.29 This looked very like a double treason, and was afterwards so regarded by some writers.30 But the neutral position taken up by the Percies, who were very powerful in southern Yorkshire, may have so weakened Montagu that he hesitated to attack Edward's small but compact force, and he was always inclined to seize an opportunity of letting events decide themselves without committing him.31 Stow adds that he was deceived by letters from Clarence, who had secretly gone over to his brother's party, announcing that he was about to arrange a general settlement, and asking him in the meantime not to fight. But what authority he had for this statement does not appear.

Montagu certainly joined Warwick at Coventry, and fought on his side at Barnet (14 April), where both were slain.32 There are curiously discrepant accounts of his conduct in the battle. In one version he insists on Warwick's fighting on foot so that he must win or fall, and himself dies fighting gallantly in 'plain battle'.33 In another he is discovered putting on Edward's livery and slain by one of Warwick's men.34 The former, though in part the official version put forth by Edward, perhaps deserves most credence. The bodies of the two brothers were carried to London, and, after being exposed 'open and naked' for two days at St. Paul's to convince the people that they were really dead, were taken down to Berkshire and interred in the burial-place of their maternal ancestors at Bisham Abbey.35 Montagu seems to have been a man of mediocre talents and hesitant temper, who was drawn rather reluctantly into treason by the stronger will of his brother and the family solidarity.

Either Edward really accepts to forget the past, after an act of contrition on Lord Montagu's part. He can claim to have played the double agent with his brothers and the Lancastrians to ensure his return to England.

Edouard gives him the keys to the North with the same scenario as Richard de Gloucester and Henri Percy in OTL with the same predominance of John Neville as Gloucester in OTL. Eventually, John Neville proposes a deal to Henri Percy. He marries his niece Anne to Henri Percy to concretize the alliance. In the deal, they exchange lands as Gloucester did. Including Beauchamp's inheritance, in compensation, Percy cedes some manors or share the power in the North.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Either Edward really accepts to forget the past, after an act of contrition on Lord Montagu's part. He can claim to have played the double agent with his brothers and the Lancastrians to ensure his return to England.

Edouard gives him the keys to the North with the same scenario as Richard de Gloucester and Henri Percy in OTL with the same predominance of John Neville as Gloucester in OTL. Eventually, John Neville proposes a deal to Henri Percy. He marries his niece Anne to Henri Percy to concretize the alliance. In the deal, they exchange lands as Gloucester did. Including Beauchamp's inheritance, in compensation, Percy cedes some manors or share the power in the North.

A Neville-Percy match makes sense. The two families hated each other - and one (Percy) went with the Lancastrians and one (Nevilles) with the Yorkists, but it was the Percy's tardiness at Bosworth where they were going to turn out for Richard III against a Lancastrian claimant, that partially decided that battle IIRC. Have to check my sources, though @BlueFlowwer or @Philippe le Bel might be more up to date on that. - but marriages in those days were generally between two families who hated each other's guts and expected the spouses to get along, even though they'd been raised to hate one another, as a way of temporarily papering over differences so they could deal with other business.

 

[Philippe le Bel]

A Neville-Percy match makes sense. The two families hated each other - and one (Percy) went with the Lancastrians and one (Nevilles) with the Yorkists, but it was the Percy's tardiness at Bosworth where they were going to turn out for Richard III against a Lancastrian claimant, that partially decided that battle IIRC. Have to check my sources, though @BlueFlowwer or @Philippe le Bel might be more up to date on that. - but marriages in those days were generally between two families who hated each other's guts and expected the spouses to get along, even though they'd been raised to hate one another, as a way of temporarily papering over differences so they could deal with other business.

Partially. The Nevilles cleaved to the Yorkists for quite a long time, until Edward IV made a few decisions with his other head and married Elizabeth Woodville, in effect humiliating Richard Neville (16th Earl of Warwick, the Kingmaker, father of Richard III's wife Anne). This, the decreased favor shown to Neville, and the increasing power entrusted to and respect shown toward Earl Rivers (Elizabeth Woodville's brother) all led to Richard Neville's support of rebellion, and to his directly joining Henry VI in his last attempt to regain England.
With Nevilles disgraced and out of the picture, especially once Richard III's wife Anne Neville died, the Percys were able to rather comfortably switch sides.
BUT as for marriages, it really depended. Nations that were centuries-long enemies such as France and England had many royal marriages (Edward I and Margaret, Edward II and the famous Isabelle the She-Wolf, Henry V and Catherine, the planned marriage between Princes (later Kings) John or Richard and Alix (sister of Philippe II), among others). But then there were many duchies and counties that regularly married other nearby families all out of amity, and were close friends and allies. Other times marriage was between the girl of a noble, prestigious family and a less noble man who had attained wealth and status, and could thereby benefit her family immensely. It all depended really, even within the royal family.
Within just this time frame you have:
Catherine of Valois (forced to marry Henry V by peace treaty, because he destroyed France on the battlefield)
Margaret of Anjou (unclear as to why, certainly she had a forceful but loyal personality, perhaps could give England some sort of alliance to the south of France)
Elizabeth Woodville (literally a love match, Edward IV fucked it all up here)
Anne Neville (first married to Edward of Middleham son of Henry VI to tie Richard Neville to the Lancastrians after his defection, later fought over by future Richard III and George of Clarence because of her huge inheritance from her now dead father)
Elizabeth of York (most senior Yorkist heir according to many people's thinking, her blood able to legitimize and stabilize the shaky rule of Henry VII who barely has a leg to stand on)
The reasons really all depend on the situation, more often than not they are matches of convenience between families who are ambivalent or even slightly friendly, not hateful. But one had to tread carefully around royals anyway.

 

[lolotte34]

Partially. The Nevilles cleaved to the Yorkists for quite a long time, until Edward IV made a few decisions with his other head and married Elizabeth Woodville, in effect humiliating Richard Neville (16th Earl of Warwick, the Kingmaker, father of Richard III's wife Anne). This, the decreased favor shown to Neville, and the increasing power entrusted to and respect shown toward Earl Rivers (Elizabeth Woodville's brother) all led to Richard Neville's support of rebellion, and to his directly joining Henry VI in his last attempt to regain England.
With Nevilles disgraced and out of the picture, especially once Richard III's wife Anne Neville died, the Percys were able to rather comfortably switch sides.
BUT as for marriages, it really depended. Nations that were centuries-long enemies such as France and England had many royal marriages (Edward I and Margaret, Edward II and the famous Isabelle the She-Wolf, Henry V and Catherine, the planned marriage between Princes (later Kings) John or Richard and Alix (sister of Philippe II), among others). But then there were many duchies and counties that regularly married other nearby families all out of amity, and were close friends and allies. Other times marriage was between the girl of a noble, prestigious family and a less noble man who had attained wealth and status, and could thereby benefit her family immensely. It all depended really, even within the royal family.
Within just this time frame you have:
Catherine of Valois (forced to marry Henry V by peace treaty, because he destroyed France on the battlefield)
Margaret of Anjou (unclear as to why, certainly she had a forceful but loyal personality, perhaps could give England some sort of alliance to the south of France)
Elizabeth Woodville (literally a love match, Edward IV fucked it all up here)
Anne Neville (first married to Edward of Middleham son of Henry VI to tie Richard Neville to the Lancastrians after his defection, later fought over by future Richard III and George of Clarence because of her huge inheritance from her now dead father)
Elizabeth of York (most senior Yorkist heir according to many people's thinking, her blood able to legitimize and stabilize the shaky rule of Henry VII who barely has a leg to stand on)
The reasons really all depend on the situation, more often than not they are matches of convenience between families who are ambivalent or even slightly friendly, not hateful. But one had to tread carefully around royals anyway.

Thanks for your comment.

In my storyline, Gloucester is already married to Joan Courtenay and is establishing his lordship in a strongly Lancastrian region of Devon and Somerset, Edward can simply confine Anne to a convent. But Beauchamp's inheritance will de facto go to Clarence. I'm not sure Edward will want all of the Beauchamp's estate to be in Clarence's hands, after his betrayal.

That's the only reason he can either:

- To favour a marriage between Anne Neville and Thomas Grey, Marquis of Dorset to supervise both the Nevilles and the Percy.

- To favour a marriage between Anne Neville and Henri Percy to stop the Neville-Percy feud in the North.

Both possibilities hold and will somehow lead to a feud with Clarence over the sharing of Beauchamp's legacy. But I can't decide which hypothesis is best.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A Percy would have to basically sit and wait for Clarence to do something extraordinarily stupid (regular stupid was his day-job ) for Edward to reward him more than giving him the Northumberland earldom back. So, he can take Clarence to court, but he has no surety that Edward (or the court) is going to side with him. Which could put Percy finances on even more of a dire spot than they were (not sure about this part, can you help @calvin1417?) . And the Warwick-Beauchamp inheritance was such a mess, that trying to disentangle it was a legalist nightmare. George got all the fancy titles, for instance, but the lands that were actually worth having went to Dickon OTL.

If Edward doesn't have to choose between his brothers (one loyal and macchiavellian, the other treacherous and an idiot), but rather a treacherous brother and a formerly Lancastrian lord who he's recently restored the family lands to, it can really go either way (although my money's on him backing George - blood will walk where water can't crawl after all). Whereas if it winds up Clarence vs. Dorset, it's no contest really (and we'd probably see a similar struggle as between Clarence and Gloucester OTL).

 

[Tyler96]

Anne Neville (first married to Edward of Middleham son of Henry VI to tie Richard Neville to the Lancastrians after his defection, later fought over by future Richard III and George of Clarence because of her huge inheritance from her now dead father)

Well, you've squicked me out by having me imagine Anne Neville being married to her son Edward of Middleham. Thanks for that. .

Her first hubby was Edward of Westminster.

 

[Philippe le Bel]

Well, you've squicked me out by having me imagine Anne Neville being married to her son Edward of Middleham. Thanks for that. .

Her first hubby was Edward of Westminster.

M I L F
My mistake. Middleham, Westminster, why do they all have to be named Edward!