Introduction
This thread is for discussing the Vandal Kingdom and its fate. Why it the kingdoms history became what it was in OTL. Aswell as ATL Vandal kingdom history and the possibilities of the kingdom. You can ask questions, answear questions, propose solutions and explain OTL as you wish.
Questions
1. What might a Vandal kingdom where the Vandals convert to nicean orthodoxy turn out?
2. Where could the Vandal kindom have expanded? What is most likely and why. Also why would the Vandal kingdom not expand(if this is what you believe or how you understand the situation).
3. Could the Vandal kingdom facilitate Vandalisation similar to the Turkification of Anatolia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification
4. Could the Vandal kingdom under Gelimer defeat the Byzantine invasion? How could it have happened? Why would it not happen?
5. Could the Vandal kingdom expand it's rule in the Maghreb?
6. How could the Vandals leave more of legacy after losing their kingdom?
7. Could the Vandalic kingdom or state adopt a form of govornance which may increase its lifespan and strength? How might such a new form of govornance be adopted, and what would spur the Vandals into adopting this system?
8. What was the population of the Vandals(the horde not the kingdom)? How could this population be increases? How quickly could this population be increased?
9. What was the tie between the Vandals and the Alans? How did they evolve togheter after arriving in North Africa?
10. Could the Vandals following the failed joint WRE(western roman empire) and ERE(eastern roman empire) invasion of the Vandal kingdom have taken controll of shipping in the mediterranen?
11. Could the Vandals have evolved an intellectual culture? Why should they? Why did they not?Why did they? How might a Vandal intellecutal culture look like?
Links(that you can dig into):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal_Kingdom
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...viving-vandal-presence-in-north-africa.34570/
http://www.medievalists.net/2009/01/the-role-of-arianism-in-the-vandal-kingdom/
http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/regents/italy/vandals.htm
https://theconversation.com/vandals-took-the-handles-but-what-else-did-they-do-27794
https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Geiseric.html
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/book/10.1002/9781444318074
(Tries to put the Vandals into a better light)
https://www.thelocal.de/20091023/22779 (Exhibition explores Vandal legacy)
https://cedar.wwu.edu/wwuet/244/ (Reign of heretics: Arianism and political power in the Vandal and Ostrogothic kingdoms)
https://www.dhi.ac.uk/sites/clericalexile/visualisations/poster-on-vandal-exile/ (Poster on Vandal Exile)
https://journals.openedition.org/lettre-cdf/2028 (The Vandals in North Africa – Heirs or Precipitators of the Decline of the Romanitas?)
http://www.academia.edu/1799924/The_Frexes_Late_Roman_Barbarians_in_the_Shadow_of_the_Vandal_Kingdom (The Frexes: Late Roman Barbarians in the Shadow of the Vandal Kingdom)
http://www.gotische-kriegergruppen.phil.fau.de/Berndt-Steinacher_Minting.pdf (Minting in Vandal North Africa: coins of the Vandal period in the Coin Cabinet of Vienna’s Kunsthistorisches Museum)
https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1058&context=phr (In Barbarian Times: State Formation and Land Redistribution in Ostrogothic Italy and Vandal North Africa)
http://rex-regum.blogspot.no/2011/11/arius-and-end-of-vandal-kingdom.html
https://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520295957 (Being Christian in Vandal Africa: The Politics of Orthodoxy in the Post-Imperial West)
http://www.medievalists.net/tag/vandals/
http://www.medievalists.net/2013/04/settlement-and-taxes-the-vandals-in-north-africa/
https://www.duo.uio.no/bitstream/handle/10852/42486/master_hindrum.pdf?sequence=1 (Political Culture of Ostrogothic Italy in a Numismatic Perspective)
https://issuu.com/johnklima/docs/the_vandals
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori...hen_the_vandals_controlled_north_africa_were/
http://www.razib.com/wordpress/?cat=1958
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/01/genes-and-rex-wandalorum-et-alanorum/#.WtfAGuqsbIU
https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/e/9781351876117/chapters/10.4324/9781315235127-12 (The Settlement of the Vandals in North Africa)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Vitensis
http://www.academia.edu/6532996/_Un...Antique_North_Africa_London_Ashgate_2004_1-29
http://web.randolphcollege.edu/summer/pdf/sample_proposal_3.pdf (A Cemetery of Vandalic date at Carthage)
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/procopius-vandals.asp (Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo
 

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TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Introduction
Questions

1. What might a Vandal kingdom where the Vandals convert to nicean orthodoxy turn out?
They would quickly disappear in the Roman sea.

2. Where could the Vandal kindom have expanded? What is most likely and why. Also why would the Vandal kingdom not expand(if this is what you believe or how you understand the situation).
I do not see it expanding - too weak.

3. Could the Vandal kingdom facilitate Vandalisation similar to the Turkification of Anatolia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification
In theory possible - i.e. Vandals remain Arians, use Vandal law, etc. But IMO simply not enough Vandals. Would require somebody with a vision and the Vandalisation would have to last for centuries.

4. Could the Vandal kingdom under Gelimer defeat the Byzantine invasion? How could it have happened? Why would it not happen?
It could. Simply the battle of the 10th? 25th? Mile runs differently and/or the Fleet (army too?) is not away putting down a revolt in Sardinia.

5. Could the Vandal kingdom expand it's rule in the Maghreb?
No. No desert skills.

6. How could the Vandals leave more of legacy after losing their kingdom?
Too few of them and they were for too short a time.

8. What was the population of the Vandals(the horde not the kingdom)? How could this population be increases? How quickly could this population be increased?
60-80K.
It could be increased by bringing in the Vandals left on the Upper Tisa and in Silesia. With some other East germanics - maybe it might be possible to find another 40-80K. Ten, maybe 15 years to ferry them to Africa. If the Vandal state was serious.
Another source is local - convert, adopt Vandal Law and you become a Freeman Vandal. No longer a semi-servile colonus.

9. What was the tie between the Vandals and the Alans? How did they evolve togheter after arriving in North Africa?
They rampaged across Gaul and Spai together. The Alans probably were the leaders of the tri-tribe alliance - themselves and the two Vandal sub-tribes - Hasding and Siling (I'm goin by memory, beter check those names). The Vandals "adopted" the remnants of Alans after these had been thrashed by the Visigoths. They were assimilated into the Vandal tribe.

10. Could the Vandals following the failed joint WRE and ERE invasion of the Vandal kingdom have taken controll of shipping in the mediterranen?
The Vandals used to raid the whole Mediterranean Basin.
Raid? Yes.
Control? No.
Too small/weak.

I think I deleted a question before answering :)
There were too few Vandals for it to matter.
They missed an opportunity with Donatists - had these schismatics been somehow roped into having a vested interest in the Vandal State this might had made a difference.
The problem is that Donatists were Romans and Orthodox (in their own eyes) first.
 
They would quickly disappear in the Roman sea.
What do you mean by this? Assimilation?
In theory possible - i.e. Vandals remain Arians, use Vandal law, etc. But IMO simply not enough Vandals. Would require somebody with a vision and the Vandalisation would have to last for centuries.
Maybe if the Vandals has a privileged postion such as that a greater amount of Vandal offspring survived and Vandals having a higher life expectancy could change the demographyof the Kindom. Something similar to the postion the Normans gave themselfes in England.
No. No desert skills.
The Vandals would likely develop these skills in time.
60-80K.
It could be increased by bringing in the Vandals left on the Upper Tisa and in Silesia. With some other East germanics - maybe it might be possible to find another 40-80K. Ten, maybe 15 years to ferry them to Africa. If the Vandal state was serious.
Another source is local - convert, adopt Vandal Law and you become a Freeman Vandal. No longer a semi-servile colonus.
But could not the Vandal population have natural increase in population. How did the Vandal population change during the period of the Vandal kingdom? Did it increase, decrease or did it stagnate?

Also what are the sources you are using?
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Yes, assimilation.
The Normans could draw upon their population base in Normandy. But still lost their language - switched to the creole - and become English.
I'm using data I remember from reading a dead-tree book.
 
Yes, assimilation.
The Normans could draw upon their population base in Normandy. But still lost their language - switched to the creole - and become English.
I'm using data I remember from reading a dead-tree book.
The Normans still formed a distinct class even after their assimilation. The descendants of the Norman conquorers still to this day, have a higher socio-economic status than other britions.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ne...orman-names-wealthier-than-other-Britons.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/17/high-house-prices-inequality-normans
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...vaded-need-Norman-like-Darcy-Percy-ahead.html
 
Wasn't the Vandal Kingdom already crumbling by Berber pressure by the time of the Roman invasion?
 
Could a longer lived vandal kingdom result on a german magreb, or they didn't had the population or the fertility rate to replace the local population?
 
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Wasn't the Vandal Kingdom already crumbling by Berber pressure by the time of the Roman invasion?
The Vandal kingdom had to retreat from the Atlas mountains to the mediterranen coast due to Berber incursions. This also opened up for Berber raids on the cities on the mediterranen coast. And if i remember correctly the Vandals also had city walls demolished so that incase of revolts it would be easier to supress the revolt. This also had the consequence of raiding these settlements being easier, and therefore raiding increased.
 
Could a longer lived vandal kingdom result on a german magred
What do you mean?
, or they didn't had the population or the fertility rate to replace the local population?
I am not very familar with Vandal demography. All i know is that the migration led be Genseric from Iberia into the Maghreb is said to have been 80000 people strong.
 
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First if all Vandal was too few to change the language of the region, also the Vandals wasn't just one group, there was allied Alans among them. If the Vandal kingdom did survive, it would likely stay Romance speaking.
 
First if all Vandal was too few to change the language of the region, also the Vandals wasn't just one group, there was allied Alans among them. If the Vandal kingdom did survive, it would likely stay Romance speaking.
Not Berber or Punic? Why would Romance languages dominate Vandal Africa?
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Not Berber or Punic? Why would Romance languages dominate Vandal Africa?
Latin was the Upper Code. It was the language of learning. It was the written language, of the Law and Courts and Church.
And it was already the 1st language of a majority? plurality? of the population. Punic or Berber might had replaced Latin in certain circumstances (like Aramaic or Coptic had rolled back Greek in Syrtia Egypt), but Africa (herein meaning Tunis + Tripolitania) apparently was different enough for this not happen there.
For Vandals to adopt Punic or Berber means turning their back at all the intelectual heritage of the Ancient World. Not impossible, but very, very unlikely.
Maybe if in 430 they had been kept out of Africa and had to stay in Mauretania Caesarensis (eastern Algeria) they could had Berberified liguistically there. But not in Africa proper.
 
Question round 2:
1. Could the Vandals have established themselfes as a ruling class similar to the Normans in England?
2. Would the Vandalic language have gained prestige had the Vandalic regime lasted longer?
3. After the Vandal kingdom was defeated by the Byzantines could they survive as a distinct diaspora tribe?
4. Could religious persecution in the Vandal kingdom produce a large scale revolt?
5. Could the Vandals have come out of the Vandal war with emperor Justinian in a better position?
6. Could a Vandal litterary culture have developed? Why did it not develop OTL?
 
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1. Could the Vandals have established themselfes as a ruling class similar to the Normans in England?

If they survive for longer and assimilate in yes

2. Would the Vandalic language have gained prestige had the Vandalic regime lasted longer?

No, Latin is too wide spread, its knowledge too important, and Vandalic used for nothing.

3. After the Vandal kingdom was defeated by the Byzantines could they survive as a distinct diaspora tribe?

No, they were as others have already said, a admixture of Germanic and Iranian, the Alans. There main identity was Arian, without this and a state, they would dissolve over time.

4. Could religious persecution in the Vandal kingdom produce a large scale revolt?

Yes, the Maghreb was becoming more Nicene.
 
What kind of Inheritance system or political organization could the Vandals have adopted to aviod internal conflict getting hot? How can a succesion crisis be avoided in the Vandal kingdom, or atleast be less likely to result into a succesion crisis?

The Vandal kingdom had agnatic seniorty succesion, which means that the eldest male inherits. Geiseric intended for this to disfuse tensions among his descendants. But later it may have resulted in internecine conflict ending up in Gelimers coup against Hilderic. Gelimer(who was next in line after Hilderic by the laws of agnatic seniority) may have been excluded by Hilderic. The Vandal princes may have wanted to ensure their own descendants secure grasp upon the throne, and felt that if they did not act someone else would? Ultimatly this may have lead to the demise of the Vandal kingdom.
 
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If they survive for longer and assimilate in yes
Assimilate in what way? What do you put into the word "assimilate"?
No, Latin is too wide spread, its knowledge too important, and Vandalic used for nothing.
What if the court had used Vandalic? Or if elite positions required Vandalic?
No, they were as others have already said, a admixture of Germanic and Iranian, the Alans. There main identity was Arian, without this and a state, they would dissolve over time.
Did the distiniction between germanic and iranic survive the time period of the Vandal kingdom, or did they merge into one new identity? Were the germanic and iranic roots still relevant? Were the germanic and iranic roots a something that produced conflict between the people with such roots?
 
Assimilate in what way? What do you put into the word "assimilate"?

Assimilate into the Local Romano-Punic culture. Essentially become Magrehbi-Normans.

What if the court had used Vandalic? Or if elite positions required Vandalic?

You would require them to make the Church in Vandalic, and not just their Liturgy, but the Liturgy of the locals as well. You would also need to stop Latin from being a prestige language, i.e. Destroy the Roman Catholic Church, and delete Europe's Obsession with Rome. Something even the Vandals had.

Did the distiniction between germanic and iranic survive the time period of the Vandal kingdom, or did they merge into one new identity? Were the germanic and iranic roots still relevant? Were the germanic and iranic roots a something that produced conflict between the people with such roots?

The Distinctions remained as far as we can tell, however, the Vandals and the Suebi merged, the Vandals and Alans not so much. They do also seem to have generate some conflict. Based on Peter Heather's work.
 
Assimilate into the Local Romano-Punic culture. Essentially become Magrehbi-Normans.
But what does assimilation entail? Can assimilation be physchological but not physical? Can assimilation be physical but not physchological? Is assimilation physchological and physical?

You would require them to make the Church in Vandalic, and not just their Liturgy, but the Liturgy of the locals as well. You would also need to stop Latin from being a prestige language, i.e. Destroy the Roman Catholic Church, and delete Europe's Obsession with Rome. Something even the Vandals had.
Could ancestral pride be enough to keep the language among the Vandals themselfes?

The Distinctions remained as far as we can tell, however, the Vandals and the Suebi merged, the Vandals and Alans not so much. They do also seem to have generate some conflict. Based on Peter Heather's work.
I thought the Suebi was a different germanic people from the Vandals. The Suebi stayed in Iberia as far as i know. Maybe you a refering to the different tribes or sub groupes of the Vandals, the Hasdingi and the Sillingi?[/QUOTE]
 
But what does assimilation entail? Can assimilation be physchological but not physical? Can assimilation be physical but not physchological? Is assimilation physchological and physical?

It can be either, as shown with the Qing in China, or the Normans in England.

Could ancestral pride be enough to keep the language among the Vandals themselfes?

It wasnt enough to keep Manchu alive, nor was it enough to keep Frankish alive.

I thought the Suebi was a different germanic people from the Vandals. The Suebi stayed in Iberia as far as i know. Maybe you a refering to the different tribes or sub groupes of the Vandals, the Hasdingi and the Sillingi?

Yeah sorry I mean't Hasdingi and Sillingi.
 
Question round 2:
1. Could the Vandals have established themselfes as a ruling class similar to the Normans in England?

If the Vandals play their cards right, their descendants despite being Romanized could very well remain influential just as the descendants of the Normans do in modern-day Britain. I don't forsee that. Vandals are more likely to be swamped and destroyed by the Berbers.

2. Would the Vandalic language have gained prestige had the Vandalic regime lasted longer?

The Vandalic language was seldom spoken by the time that they were conquered by Belisarius and Justinian. You underestimate the allure of Roman civilization to the Vandals. They didn't want to destroy Roman culture in Africa but to adopt it and make it their own.

3. After the Vandal kingdom was defeated by the Byzantines could they survive as a distinct diaspora tribe?

Yes but it wasn't Byzantine policy to allow potentially disruptive elements to concentrate themselves too much. The Vandals would be dispersed and thus would become extinct within a few generations.

4. Could religious persecution in the Vandal kingdom produce a large scale revolt?

Yes quite so.

5. Could the Vandals have come out of the Vandal war with emperor Justinian in a better position?

If there was no revolt in Sardinia, the Vandals could've well defeated Belisarius and stopped Justinian's ambitions for reconquest in his tracks. It doesn't mean they would be in a good position as the Berbers are still a factor.

6. Could a Vandal litterary culture have developed? Why did it not develop OTL?

I'm sure one did exist. It was just that Roman civilization is THAT much alluring. Look at the Internet: most of the Internet is in English. Even if you weren't a native speaker, you are sort of compelled to learn it to speak it. Imagine that but in ancient times.
 
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