Medieval America Mark III
- Thread starter Flashman
- Start date
Been thinking about this setting quite a bit recently. It got me thinking, and I had a few ideas:
- Somebody a couple pages ago had the idea that some Muslims fled to Colorado for fear of persecution. As the regression occurred around 2012, it's likely that the events of the 9/11 terrorist attack were fresh on people's minds. In the world of Medieval America, could this story be used to justify bigotry against Muslims? How might this story have changed over time?
- Another idea I had, based on the ideas of corporate logos changing over time: the image of the McDonalds logo, Ronald McDonald, has survived into 31st century. Some see him as a kindly clown riding on a bicycle delivering delicious breads and sweet meats (and occasionally small toys) to parts of America wracked with famine, whilst other stories claim him to be a sinister, wicked witch-like figure, insisting that despite its sweet smell, his food is in fact poison which slowly kills its eaters, so that he may eat them.
- I thought it could be interesting to have a roaming group of entertainers - possibly puppeteers, who perform political satire, as well as Sesame Street-like children's entertainment, with colourful characters teaching about the importance of prayer, patriotism, and respect for one's elders.
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Any plans on returning to this?
Would it be possible for Roman-style chariot racing to replace automotive racing?
Would it be possible for Roman-style chariot racing to replace automotive racing?
Actually this is quite likely, and would fit in especially well in the South, where I'm envisioning a lot of pseudo-Grecian motifs, what with plantation architecture and the notion of a cultured, philosophical land elite on the backs of hordes of slaves. NASCAR becomes NASCART, and Sharecroppers compete with their swords and sandals to win their freedom...
Good idea. It'd be part of the "bread and circuses" routine that keeps the sharecroppers and other peasants in their place and unquestioning of Patrician power. The most "democratic" states in medieval America operate more like the Roman Republic or Venice with most of the votes in the hands of the elite class.
Where exactly are we in America? I remember finishing the Great Plains just before the hiatus.
Nope, not quite done with the Great Plains. The Rizzinis and the Okies need to be done at a minimum.
Fair enough. I just know I'm going to be more interested in fleshing out the more civilized parts in the east. Though it might be interesting seeing how states that have to deal with marauding cowboys would develop. Especially if it means fleshing out what little White has written about them.
tehskyman
Banned
I think that White really missed out on writing for the Feudal Heartland. At first glance it seems like a redux of Western europe but if you look at it closer it's totally different. In North America, you have vast wildernesses right next to the civilized states, the plains to the east and the forest to the north. Coupled with the fact that the northern tribesmen have a cultural familiarity with the canoe, means that you have a much larger trade with the tribesmen and herdsmen, unlike western europe. Also North American trade and contact with tropical and subtropical regions is so much easier makes that interesting too.
You have Ohio which could be like France, heavily fractured but by far the most powerful state, except that Ohio must defend against plainsmen, has a border with it's permanent rival Michigan etc. You get the Great Lakes, at first glance like the Baltics, except the Baltics never had a hostile foreign power like Quebec. The South East is totally unique, no good analogues in Europe, best analogues would be India, caste system, anyone? The USA remnant was clearly meant to be the Byzantines but could the Byzantines sail to regions as far flung as Labrador to Venezuela? Is there an equivalent to a Voodoo State in Louisiana?
I think the really interesting stuff is in Latin America though which is a huge shame he didn't consider it at all. You have the old Native Empires but now, they have steel and wheat and cows and pigs and Catholicism and writing. Imagine what the Mexican-Aztec empire could look like. What about Neo-Mayans? A Carribean Empire? The Incans as the Persians of South America. To top it all off, this can be easily sailed, 12000 km from end to end, the same distance as Portugal to Indonesia.
I guess White never considered that even brought down to medieval standards America isn't exactly comparable to medieval Europe.
It's frankly disappointing that he focused all of his attention on the Lower 48 instead of the continent as a whole.
Frankly we've almost contributed more to flesh out this project than White did. All he's got to show for his work is a half-finished website with at least half of the links leading to nothing.
You're making me eagerly await what you're going to post next. Whatever it is, it's going to be good.
tehskyman
Banned
I mean, one of the things I think really differentiates North America from Europe is the geography. Feudal Europe is narrow and deep. You have to go through Poland and Germany to get to France or travel across north Africa, go to spain, cross the Pyrenees. Feudal North America is broad and shallow. From Ohio to Mississippi a lucky cowboy raid could reach you.
Feudal Europe's Crusades needed to cross the continent. Feudal North America's crusades means crossing the Mississippi or the Great Lakes, unless of course they wanted to sail down and invade Mexico or Cuba for some reason.
Feudal Europe is concentrated in one latitude, Feudal North America sprawls from Subarctic to tropical. Europe had to get all it's exotic goods through expensive land trade. Feudal America thrives off of an intercontinental waterway from Labrador to Tinidad in the East and Alaska to Chile in the west.
Feudal Europe's Crusades needed to cross the continent. Feudal North America's crusades means crossing the Mississippi or the Great Lakes, unless of course they wanted to sail down and invade Mexico or Cuba for some reason.
Feudal Europe is concentrated in one latitude, Feudal North America sprawls from Subarctic to tropical. Europe had to get all it's exotic goods through expensive land trade. Feudal America thrives off of an intercontinental waterway from Labrador to Tinidad in the East and Alaska to Chile in the west.
tehskyman
Banned
Of course, but I think an opportunity was missed when he didn't do this kind of analysis on Latin America or even the west Coast in more depth, though that probably stems from a lack of English-language resources on potential analogues.
Consider what he did end up doing, overlaying western europe over eastern North America, Egypt and Mesopotamia over the west and the Steppes over the Great Plains. Those are analogues that are well documented, especially in english, so I don't really fault White for not doing the rest of the Americas. Such a task would have been monumental even if he had all the knowledge he needed. The information we have available even with a quick Google search is orders of magnitude more detailed than what he had.
Consider what he did end up doing, overlaying western europe over eastern North America, Egypt and Mesopotamia over the west and the Steppes over the Great Plains. Those are analogues that are well documented, especially in english, so I don't really fault White for not doing the rest of the Americas. Such a task would have been monumental even if he had all the knowledge he needed. The information we have available even with a quick Google search is orders of magnitude more detailed than what he had.
tehskyman
Banned
Whites analysis was detailed and what he did write was great. I just think that he might've been a bit conservative in considering the differences between North America and Europe and as a result failed to truly distinguish Feudal America from Feudal Europe. This is probably why he stopped writing. It must've felt like just rehashing history instead of creating something new.
I don't think we got enough of a look at the east coast to definitively make that statement. Just look at the United States- hardly a direct Byzantine or Venetian analogue.
tehskyman
Banned
I was more referring to the feudal heartland: wisconsin, Ohio, tennesee etc. These areas didn't get any mention at all whilst the east coast and south got some and the west got a lot more.The East Coast and South being different enough from western europe to be interesting to white and the west to be so different as to take up almost all his attention.
Looking at the article list, it's all about new areas, things different from Europe. California, Utah, the South to some degree, the USA. Nothing at all about Ohio, Michigan etc.
He didn't even write about New Mexico, similar as it was to Egypt.
So I guess my point over the last couple posts is that White didn't have enough information or time to do a topic like this justice and where he did have the information, there was much that was too similar to the old world analogues he was using upon which he did not expand upon.
He was certainly planning to do more. A LOT more. I don't think it was a matter of feeling like what remained was too similar to the Old World: I think it was simply a matter of him being a busy man- a published author, no less.
tehskyman
Banned
Let's be real, the guy published a book in 2011, this page came out in 1999. He's a librarian at a state court. Man just lost interest in the project.
on a semi-related note
I always pictured him as much younger. Writing the page in his 20s and being in his 40s.
Makes sense that he's from Richmond, would explain why he featured it in particular.
from here http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/b...le-things-by-matthew-white.html?_r=1&ref=arts
more https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/cha...l-a-catalog-of-history-s-100-worst-atrocities
on a semi-related note
I always pictured him as much younger. Writing the page in his 20s and being in his 40s.
Makes sense that he's from Richmond, would explain why he featured it in particular.
from here http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/b...le-things-by-matthew-white.html?_r=1&ref=arts
more https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/cha...l-a-catalog-of-history-s-100-worst-atrocities
I was in error here, the Okies are all that remain to be done in terms of "required" updates.