The Maya Establish a Presence in North America

During the time before the arrival of Europeans in the New World, the Maya were one of the most powerful Empires that existed. Between 250 and 900 AD, the Maya Empire dominated the Yucatan peninsula. They built massive cities sporting spectacular stone sculptures, developed intricate mathematical systems and a calendar, and explored the night skies for their astronomical secrets. In 900 AD, the Maya civilization collapsed, for reasons that scholars still debate over. Whatever the reason, the Maya Empire never reached the zenith it had again, and any remainder was devastated by the arrival of the Spanish.

What if after the collapse of the Maya Empire the remnants moved north and established a new Maya Empire in North America? Would they have been able to push back the Spanish and English, or does North America still become colonized by Europe?
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Why would they move north through lands controlled by other sedentary tribes? The Maya were not the only large population centers during this period, just the best known. A migration the size of an entire Mayan city would incur major population losses by the migrating settlers and the tribes they would encounter.

The Maya may influence the tribes in southern, coastal Texas and Louisiana through trade. Indeed, they may have had some contact with these groups. The later Toltec culture traded with the puebloan cultures of the Rio Grande valley. A stronger maritime Mayan culture could have led to greater influence throughout the lower Gulf Coast and Greater Antilles. Colonization may have been more likely in this case.

The Maya were in North America. Mexico is part of North America. If a group settled northward, it would still suffer the losses from disease and disruption seen from Desoto's expedition. It may remain strong enough to delay the European colonization. It has no chance of stopping the OTL European onslaught.
 
You are quite misinformed, however, regarding the existence of a "Mayan Empire". At no time in history were the various Maya kingdoms in Mexico, Belize, and the Peten region united into large empires. Rather, as shown in hieroglyphic inscriptions at many classic period sites, the Maya realm was divided into many independent and often hostile city states ruled by hereditary dynasties. In fact, if there was any "empire building" going on in MesoAmerica during the period AD 250-900, it stemmed, not from the Maya, but from the large Central Mexican site of Teotihuacan, which influenced and possibly even dominated a number of the major classic period Maya city states for a brief time. Also, as others have pointed out, an expansion of Maya power further into North America (I assume you mean the USA) would have required the Maya to conquer or subjugate many cultures and civilizations between Yucatan and the Rio Grande, many of whom were as advanced as the Maya. Pretty much impossible.
 
Basically everything I would've said has already been brought up. The Maya were already technically in North America (the North American continent does not end at the Rio Grande), there was no Maya Empire, there's no logic behind them moving north en masse, there were other civilizations in the way besides the Maya since they weren't the only city-dwellers in Mesoamerica, merely the most famous, and a migratory Maya group in the modern USA would be even less capable of fending off the Spanish than the so-called "remnants" in the Yucatan. A point about which I want to make, calling the Postclassic Maya "remnants" is rather unfair since they still built large cities that impressed the Spaniards, were still a literate people, and still produced many fine works of art, they just didn't make gigantic pyramids anymore. Plus, they occupied far more than just the Yucatan peninsula, in fact the center of Classic Maya civilization was to the south and the most famous city is in Guatemala, and the Postclassic Maya in the Guatemalan highlands were still relatively powerful, moreso in fact than they were during the Classic.
 
I can maybe see an ATL where Mesoamerican culture diffuses more heavily along the Caribbean and Gulf, but whether these would be wholly Maya would depend on other factors. Plastered white and red cities might attract Spanish conquistadors to the region, especially if they had gold. If they controlled the Seaboard, they could absolutely thwart the European raiding and naval vessels that would be sailing upwards. A full scale Spanish armada might be another story, but they'd have to consider if such an invasion would be worth it or if they're a sufficient threat. It might even give the English and French incentive to just trade with the 'Maya' ports for luxury goods.

Basically everything I would've said has already been brought up. The Maya were already technically in North America (the North American continent does not end at the Rio Grande), there was no Maya Empire, there's no logic behind them moving north en masse, there were other civilizations in the way besides the Maya since they weren't the only city-dwellers in Mesoamerica, merely the most famous, and a migratory Maya group in the modern USA would be even less capable of fending off the Spanish than the so-called "remnants" in the Yucatan. A point about which I want to make, calling the Postclassic Maya "remnants" is rather unfair since they still built large cities that impressed the Spaniards, were still a literate people, and still produced many fine works of art, they just didn't make gigantic pyramids anymore. Plus, they occupied far more than just the Yucatan peninsula, in fact the center of Classic Maya civilization was to the south and the most famous city is in Guatemala, and the Postclassic Maya in the Guatemalan highlands were still relatively powerful, moreso in fact than they were during the Classic.
Righto! I guess I'll add the Postclassic Maya were still into the pyramid building scene. One of the most prominent examples of Maya civilization, Chichen Itza, is a Postclassic city after all. The 'new' Itza state in the Peten region, the kingdoms of the Guatemala highlands and many Classic cities that 'survived the collapse' had plenty of monumental temple building.

Probably the closest example of an 'empire' ever built by the Maya was Chichen Itza's dominance of the Yucatan and later the confederated League of Mayapan, which dissolved due to political intrigue and broke up into its constituent kuchkabal'ob; many of which were quite active in the wider trade throughout Mesoamerica and half of the Caribbean. While also not an 'empire', Tikal and Calakmul both controlled large portions of the Southern Lowlands during the later half of the Classic Period.

Why would they move north through lands controlled by other sedentary tribes? The Maya were not the only large population centers during this period, just the best known. A migration the size of an entire Mayan city would incur major population losses by the migrating settlers and the tribes they would encounter.
And as we see from the Itza, migrating long distances wasn't even something considered impossible. But they migrated to areas they knew and could make alliances in with people who spoke mostly the same language. There's precious little incentivizing any Maya group to do this in a completely foreign political landscape.
The later Toltec culture traded with the puebloan cultures of the Rio Grande valley.
Actually, there's been ever-increasing doubt that the Toltecs, as we knew them, actually even existed -- let alone be the people responsible for trading with the American Southwest (of which an indirect trade network of Mesoamerican and American Southwest groups is assumed to be responsible)! What seemed like a clear-cut narrative of a wide-ranging Aztec precursor seems to be more complicated, and the evidence more indicative of a larger intercultural phenomenon happening throughout Mesoamerica with no clear nexus. Kowalski and Graham's Twin Tollans is a great book to read up on the latest thinking.
The Maya were in North America. Mexico is part of North America. If a group settled northward, it would still suffer the losses from disease and disruption seen from Desoto's expedition. It may remain strong enough to delay the European colonization. It has no chance of stopping the OTL European onslaught.
The one where De Soto and ~100 other Spaniards died of a mysterious illness while there is no evidence of native towns dying of disease during this time, not in the historical nor the archaeological record? While disease was certainly a factor in protohistoric America, its importance has been vastly overplayed compared to more human factors.
 
One of the most prominent examples of Maya civilization, Chichen Itza, is a Postclassic city after all.
Correction: Chichen at its apoge is a Terminal Classic city. But Utatlan and Mayapan had pyramids, so you’re still right. Hell, Nojpeten in 1697 had pyramids.

Chichen Itza's dominance of the Yucatan and later the confederated League of Mayapan
The actual degree to which Chichen and Mayapan were dominant in the Yucatán is disputable. The former probably had some sort of ideological hegemony over the region, but the polities subject to the latter covered only a quarter of the peninsula. To speak of an empire is a fool’s errand.
 

ar-pharazon

Banned
I'm not sure how this is possible-even if all the maya cities united under some sort of cohesive empire or one dynasty then they still would have to conquer north throughout Mexico. There is no way they'd be able to reach the Rio Grande.
 
Supposing the Maya built better seafaring boats or even coastal vessels there is no reason they might not reach (or colonize?) much farther. Maybe they become a sort of New World equalivalent of Phoenicia?
 
There was something here a while back where Mayan culture spreads throughout the Carribean, although it's more the natives who are influenced by it rather than being replaced by the Maya. Here's the map and here's the thread.
 
Correction: Chichen at its apoge is a Terminal Classic city. But Utatlan and Mayapan had pyramids, so you’re still right. Hell, Nojpeten in 1697 had pyramids.
The Early Postclassic goes from 900 to 1200. Chichen Itza was quite active during that time.
The actual degree to which Chichen and Mayapan were dominant in the Yucatán is disputable. The former probably had some sort of ideological hegemony over the region, but the polities subject to the latter covered only a quarter of the peninsula. To speak of an empire is a fool’s errand.
Hence, closest thing to empire in the region, until the Spanish. There seems to be a few different interpretations on the exact extent of the Yucatan peninsula (I don't have a source on hand to confirm any of them), but the League's political extent seems to match up okay with the smaller conceptions.

I looked at Wikipedia's article for the league though and oh my god. That's gonna be on my list of pages to eventually fix up.
Granted, Chichen Itza was so significant that it was still receiving tribute in the 1700's IIRC, even though nobody was living there.
Interestingly, the nephew of the Ajaw Kan Ek' of the southern Itza state stated that his mother (the king's sister) was from Chichen Itza. It probably had a smaller population having a more ceremonial status than conventionally political.
Since the Maya did not use sails, they have a long way to go to be like the Phoenicians...
Both they and the Taino seemed to get by (in some areas) shipping long-distance bulk cargo without relying on sails, though I imagine they might make some aspects of it a little easier. If they independently developed sailing technology, it'd probably start out with square sails which aren't too reliable in the Gulf & Caribbean's wind and ocean currents, though they could use it for a few one-way journeys where the wind is directly behind them (like this post-contact woodblock print). Even the Spanish seem to have had some initial difficulties navigating the area.
 
Inkan/Andean ships were noted as having sails in some very early cases and pre-Columbian contact with Mexico is now evident using those boats. While not proof the idea is interesting, perhaps a catamaran design of some sort would be possible as well with or without sails?
 
The Early Postclassic goes from 900 to 1200. Chichen Itza was quite active during that time.
Chichen Itza was already in decline as an urban center by the eleventh century. There is little evidence for any major power in the Yucatan for most of the Early Postclassic.

Hence, closest thing to empire in the region, until the Spanish.
I'm not sure where exactly you're getting the idea that Mayapan was an empire. Could you explain exactly? What exactly makes it imperial when it does not appear to have engaged in any major conquest, for one?

the League's political extent seems to match up okay with the smaller conceptions.
It certainly did not. The Mayapan state's "territorial" (in quotes because Maya batabils were centered on control over communities, not territory) extent was not very much larger than the modern Mexican state of Yucatan, which covers only a small portion of the Yucatan Peninsula.

Both they and the Taino seemed to get by (in some areas) shipping long-distance bulk cargo without relying on sails
In Mesoamerica, canoes followed the coastline ridiculously closely (to the point that there was little contact with Cuba, just two or three days' worth of sailing away). And I think it's difficult to say that there was trade in "bulk cargo" in the Caribbean; most Caribbean trade was in prestige goods.
 
Technologically, the best chance of stopping the Conquistadores would be a wide spread adoption of fortifications, walled towns and castles. This would neutralize the cavalry, their greatest advantage.
 
I was watching a documentary last night saying there was a connection between the Maya and the state of Georgia, based on the prevalence of Maya Blue and there not being any material in Central America for the making of this pigment and plenty of it in Georgia. Any thoughts?
 
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