Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

[Deleted member 97083]

Compromise 1 (no single north-south border):

This compromise does away with that single unbroken line, instead using three different north-south borders. It seems less neat, but it keeps Jefferson's vision of straight north-south lines, while also reflecting where he believed those lines ought to be drawn. The states are roughly proportioned as Jefferson seems to have intended.

This one seems the best, and the "broken but relatively proportionate straight lines" borders seems like it would fit pretty well with the OTL borders of Great Plains states.

 

[MasterSanders]

Former member Highlander did a map based on this (and expanding the same philosophy farther west) here: https://alt-reality.deviantart.com/art/Jefferson-s-West-90990083

Man, I miss that guy’s maps. Too bad he had to get himself banned.

 

[Skallagrim]

This one seems the best, and the "broken but relatively proportionate straight lines" borders seems like it would fit pretty well with the OTL borders of Great Plains states.

I agree that this is the best option. It leaves that rather small Washington state, of course. A solution to that would be to enlarge that state on the east. Draw a straight line down from the (then-disputed) Erie Triangle, until meeting the Allegheny, and then following that to Pittsburgh, then tracing the Monongahela to Virginia´s northern border, and cutting west from there till you meet the Ohio. But in any case, that deviates from Jefferson's plan, too-- so I'll refrain from speculation.

 

[Chris S]

Coming back for a moment......
I've mocked up some variations of his proposal, each (in one way or another) attempting to stay as close as possible to what he suggested.


Variation 1 (using a border based on Lake Michigan):



As one can see, this leaves the western states much smaller than the eastern ones. Most noticably, it yields a very oversized Georgia.

.

I dunno, I think some Georgians would say it yields a just-about-right Georgia....

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

I imagine in all honesty it'll just default to the British/Americans or the capitalist "South Japan" or whatever state comes into existence post-occupation.

EDIT: Also WorldA

Hey, nice work!

 

[Skallagrim]

I dunno, I think some Georgians would say it yields a just-about-right Georgia....

Let me rephrase: a very oversized Georgia compared to the other states. I'm certain there are Georgians who feel that their state should rightfully extend to the Mississippi-- nay, the Pacific!

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

The Golden Circle, the Confederacy's imperial ambitions to seize the world's cotton and sugar supplies, creating what they called a tropical empire. Naturally, all of these would be slave states.

 

[Skallagrim]

View attachment 367222
The Golden Circle, the Confederacy's imperial ambitions to seize the world's cotton and sugar supplies, creating what they called a tropical empire. Naturally, all of these would be slave states.

Otherwise known as: "Aren't you glad this didn't happen?"

Incidentally, if we're going for full claims, note that Southern slavocrats already claimed this before the CSA was ever a thing, and tht their ambitions included Kansas, all of Arizona (you only have them claim OTL's "Confederate Arizona", but they wanted the northern half too, up to OTL NM/Arizona's northern border) and a proposed Southern Californian slave state (often called "Colorado" in ATL, because of the river, making it a likely name) which would be everything south of that same OTL NM/Arizona northern border, just extended west to the Pacific. Also, while claims in South America were never defined, the implication was very much "everything we can grab", so the idea of them intentionally leaving Venezuala a coastline strikes me as improbable.

Revision:

(Otherwise known as: "Now that's even worse, damnit!")

 

[Chris S]

Let me rephrase: a very oversized Georgia compared to the other states. I'm certain there are Georgians who feel that their state should rightfully extend to the Mississippi-- nay, the Pacific!

Well, it was Georgia's right by grant of the Royal Charter in the 1730s. It's only fair. All those states in the way, like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, Arizona etc....they only exist by dint of Georgia's magnanimity in not pressing it's rightful claims.

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

In 1975, Augusto Pinochet of all people proposed granting land from Chile and Peru to Bolivia, finally allowing them to regain direct access to the ocean. The Lluta River would form Chile's new northern border and it would receive an equal amount of Bolivian territory in return. The reason this proposal failed was due to Peruvian dictator Francisco Morales-Bermúdez disagreed on the idea, but proposed that the nearby town of Arica be governed by all three nations. Pinochet disagreed on such a complicated situation and the project was ultimately abandoned.

 

[Thande]

Well, it was Georgia's right by grant of the Royal Charter in the 1730s. It's only fair. All those states in the way, like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, Arizona etc....they only exist by dint of Georgia's magnanimity in not pressing it's rightful claims.

I don't know if anyone has ever drawn a complete coast to coast map, but this gives you an idea (1770s)

 

[Chris S]

View attachment 367233
In 1975, Augusto Pinochet of all people proposed granting land from Chile and Peru to Bolivia, finally allowing them to regain direct access to the ocean. The Lluta River would form Chile's new northern border and it would receive an equal amount of Bolivian territory in return. The reason this proposal failed was due to Peruvian dictator Francisco Morales-Bermúdez disagreed on the idea, but proposed that the nearby town of Arica be governed by all three nations. Pinochet disagreed on such a complicated situation and the project was ultimately abandoned.

It was also due to the fact that the territory in question was originally Peruvian territory and that by the peace treaty that ended the War of the Pacific between Peru and Chile, Chile was not allowed to ceded former Peruvian territories to any other country without asking Peru first. Peru rejected Pinochet's proposals on those grounds and then came up with the counter-offer (which makes sense as Arica used to be a Peruvian town), which Pinochet in turn rejected.

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

MBAM version

 

[Clandango]

View attachment 367233
In 1975, Augusto Pinochet of all people proposed granting land from Chile and Peru to Bolivia, finally allowing them to regain direct access to the ocean. The Lluta River would form Chile's new northern border and it would receive an equal amount of Bolivian territory in return. The reason this proposal failed was due to Peruvian dictator Francisco Morales-Bermúdez disagreed on the idea, but proposed that the nearby town of Arica be governed by all three nations. Pinochet disagreed on such a complicated situation and the project was ultimately abandoned.

Just imagine this in world with a long running or more official Condor Pact. Arica might have become something like the capital of South America.

 

[Ashtagon]

Would any kind of successful CSA have kept those internal divisions in Mexico etc.? Making each of them a state would give them utter dominance in their national government, and I can definitely see a CSA taking advantage of existing separatist groups to make new states (eg Rep. of the Rio Grande).

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

Would any kind of successful CSA have kept those internal divisions in Mexico etc.? Making each of them a state would give them utter dominance in their national government, and I can definitely see a CSA taking advantage of existing separatist groups to make new states (eg Rep. of the Rio Grande).

What would be the most effective internal visions in terms of control?

 

[Stateless]

While this is a alternate history map, this map does a good job of depicting an actual proposed plan by the Freeland League of their plan to establish a Jewish homeland in the Kimberly region of Australia.

Proposed in late 1938 or early 1939, the plan was for 75,000 European Jews to occupy 28,000 square kilometres (11,000 sq mi) of agricultural land. Under the plan, an initial 500-600 pioneers would arrive to construct basic necessities for the settlement such as homes, irrigation works, and a power station, followed by the arrival of the main body of immigrants.

Of course, the plan was rejected by the Australian government, who was not very warm to the idea of an alien population making their home in Australia, backed up by fears that the Jews would leave the settlement and into the bigger cities, where they would take jobs away from white Australians.

I have been curious about this scenario for a long time. I wonder how this would've worked out.

Couldn't they have taken that small remaining strip of West Australia?

 

[Alex Richards]

I don't know if anyone has ever drawn a complete coast to coast map, but this gives you an idea (1770s)

I've never seen a version of New York with those extended claims in Maine before.

 

[Skallagrim]

Would any kind of successful CSA have kept those internal divisions in Mexico etc.? Making each of them a state would give them utter dominance in their national government, and I can definitely see a CSA taking advantage of existing separatist groups to make new states (eg Rep. of the Rio Grande).

What would be the most effective internal visions in terms of control?

One may assume that the Confederates would carve out a number of non-voting territories, likely to be deliberately different from pre-existing borders. Places with seperatist tendencies may get special treatment (i.e. limited self-government). This may seem surprising, given the CSA's racist tendencies, but note that they were quite willing to promise a rather autonomous Indian Territory (and it seems this promise wasn't intended to be hollow). One can imagine them doing the same in regards to Maya peoples of Yucatan and the separatists of the Rio Grande Republic.

The more "standard" territories carved out of Latin American countries would, in all likelihood evolve into full states in time, but based on an Apartheid-like system where you only get to be a citizen if you're "white enough" (and, presumably, Protestant).

Any attempt to show this on a map would be highly speculative, however.

 

[GodoftheTranses]

View attachment 367382
MBAM version

Otherwise known as: "Aren't you glad this didn't happen?"

Incidentally, if we're going for full claims, note that Southern slavocrats already claimed this before the CSA was ever a thing, and tht their ambitions included Kansas, all of Arizona (you only have them claim OTL's "Confederate Arizona", but they wanted the northern half too, up to OTL NM/Arizona's northern border) and a proposed Southern Californian slave state (often called "Colorado" in ATL, because of the river, making it a likely name) which would be everything south of that same OTL NM/Arizona northern border, just extended west to the Pacific. Also, while claims in South America were never defined, the implication was very much "everything we can grab", so the idea of them intentionally leaving Venezuala a coastline strikes me as improbable.

Revision:

View attachment 367224

(Otherwise known as: "Now that's even worse, damnit!")

Wouldnt this super CSA also include Delaware? I mean, it was a slave state after all