Medieval America Mark III

1. In the last thread I think someone claimed it would've collapsed by now. Now I'm personally disinclined to believe that, but I was also disinclined to believe it about the Hoover Dam, so.

2. More or less.

3. No, it is. This is effectively a new Mexican affair: as I said, it is a confederacy in name only.

4. Probably.

1. While it'd be absolutely useless as a power plant the actual structure would last 10,000 years. And with a far reduced water demand, the small community in Vegas would have more than enough water to survive. While Vegas would be struggling water wouldn't be something they'd need to worry about.

4. Good. That map added some interesting flavor to that post and I'd like to see your take on some of White's ideas. Like the Venice-like rump United States.
 
1. While it'd be absolutely useless as a power plant the actual structure would last 10,000 years. And with a far reduced water demand, the small community in Vegas would have more than enough water to survive. While Vegas would be struggling water wouldn't be something they'd need to worry about.
Look upthread. There were some fairly convincing arguments as to why it wouldn't last.
 
Look upthread. There were some fairly convincing arguments as to why it wouldn't last.

The Kingdom/Empire of Vegas collapses due to a combination of dynastic conflict, the destruction of down-river dams, and the disastrous effects of undermining. A remnant organizes later ruled by a distant illegitimate member of the House Dynasty and supported by the replenished groundwater. While it's nowhere near it's former glory it's still somewhat stable. I like the idea of them living in the former casinos of the strip since the Las Vegas Strip doesn't really fall in Vegas proper, ironically. I like the idea of the former homes of the Old Vegas elite being turned into slums filled with poverty-stricken people.
 
The Kingdom/Empire of Vegas collapses due to a combination of dynastic conflict, the destruction of down-river dams, and the disastrous effects of undermining. A remnant organizes later ruled by a distant illegitimate member of the House Dynasty and supported by the replenished groundwater. While it's nowhere near it's former glory it's still somewhat stable. I like the idea of them living in the former casinos of the strip since the Las Vegas Strip doesn't really fall in Vegas proper, ironically. I like the idea of the former homes of the Old Vegas elite being turned into slums filled with poverty-stricken people.
But the Hoover Dam collapsed in the 9th century PG. Taking with it the Kingdom. All that remains are remnants.
 
But the Hoover Dam collapsed in the 9th century PG. Taking with it the Kingdom. All that remains are remnants.

Maybe the largest remnant is the so-called "successor" to the Kingdom lead by someone at least claiming to be a member of the old House Dynasty. Frankly, the difficulties resulting from the dam's collapse are enough for the "Vegan remnants" to deal with without adding in the additional complication of the undermining.

All this means is that we could have an update focusing on the post-Vegan Kingdom territorial squabbles. I'm guessing that the collapse happened at least a century ago, which means that more than enough time had passed to allow the area's groundwater to replenish. Which'd be more than enough water for the little towns and villages living in the former Las Vegas area.
 

tehskyman

Banned
The Kingdom/Empire of Vegas collapses due to a combination of dynastic conflict, the destruction of down-river dams, and the disastrous effects of undermining. A remnant organizes later ruled by a distant illegitimate member of the House Dynasty and supported by the replenished groundwater. While it's nowhere near it's former glory it's still somewhat stable. I like the idea of them living in the former casinos of the strip since the Las Vegas Strip doesn't really fall in Vegas proper, ironically. I like the idea of the former homes of the Old Vegas elite being turned into slums filled with poverty-stricken people.

Without the dam, the location of Vegas is infeasible b/c the energy needed to raise the water from the bottom of the canyon to the canyon rim and then have it flow to vegas is probably too great for a preindustrial society. The actual location of "Vegas" would have to move, from its current location some ways away from the river to hugging the river somewhere else.
 
Without the dam, the location of Vegas is infeasible b/c the energy needed to raise the water from the bottom of the canyon to the canyon rim and then have it flow to vegas is probably too great for a preindustrial society. The actual location of "Vegas" would have to move, from its current location some ways away from the river to hugging the river somewhere else.

Again, I said groundwater. The reason why "Vegas" is called that is because of the local springs that supplied water to thirsty travelers. The reason why the dam was needed for water is because of the local aquifer being drained because of all the demand. It'd take about fifty years of desert rains for the aquifer to replenish so by the time the dams collapse they would've likely long since replenished. And with the much lower demand for water, it'd likely be enough to support the shattered remains of the Vegas Kingdom.
 

tehskyman

Banned
In that case, I suppose that a small outpost approximately where old Vegas was could exist. Though is there enough groundwater to sustain agriculture? There might not be and so Vegas would probably just end up being a city lying on a relatively small trade route through the desert. Not large enough to be bothered with by any of the major empires that surround it
 
In that case, I suppose that a small outpost approximately where old Vegas was could exist. Though is there enough groundwater to sustain agriculture? There might not be and so Vegas would probably just end up being a city lying on a relatively small trade route through the desert. Not large enough to be bothered with by any of the major empires that surround it

It could be a small town sustained by local groundwater, a small bit of agriculture and the small yet steady trade route. I like it calling itself the "Second Kingdom of Vegas" as a bit of rather sad hyperbole.
 
Again, I said groundwater. The reason why "Vegas" is called that is because of the local springs that supplied water to thirsty travelers.
Where are you getting this? "Las Vegas" simply means "The Pastures".

In that case, I suppose that a small outpost approximately where old Vegas was could exist. Though is there enough groundwater to sustain agriculture? There might not be and so Vegas would probably just end up being a city lying on a relatively small trade route through the desert. Not large enough to be bothered with by any of the major empires that surround it
It could be a small town sustained by local groundwater, a small bit of agriculture and the small yet steady trade route. I like it calling itself the "Second Kingdom of Vegas" as a bit of rather sad hyperbole.
Well, here was my thought: the city had historically been a place that the surrounding empires (Deseret, New Mexico, California and presumably Bajo Colorado) exiled their people based off the myths about the "City of Sin". The Houses took control of the region, claiming the remarkably intact ruins of Vegas as their own. They started a minor hydraulic empire based off of Lake Mead, conquering the surrounding tribes and minor towns. They remained a center for exiles, and then a center for trade. It became a legendary city for the Dineh, and was one of the holiest "Vortices" (more on that in a later post) on the way to the second holiest Vortex in New Agedom, Fifty-One. Its greatest industry, in addition to Dineh pilgrims, was mining of the ancient steel that underlined the city.

It goes through many ups and downs, conquering stretches of the Colorado, maybe even setting up a Dineh dynasty at some point. But, eventually, the happy-happy good times come to an end with the collapse of the Hoover Dam. This throws them into turmoil, undermining goes into overdrive to purchase water to keep armies alive. All culminating in a final climactic battle between the casinos. The great thundering of feet, the great siege engines, and the blood leaching into the ground make it so something's gotta give. And it does, and the city collapses.

As to what it is in the modern-day: the territory itself is a vassal of the Dineh, consisting of a few minor farming villages and trading outposts. Some new town likely serves as the major stopover for pilgrims headed to Fifty-One, though it certainly doesn't attain the fame nor prosperity of Old Vegas.

The city itself is a crater, forbidden to all save the exiles, who are forced into it by the superstitious tribals at knife-point.
 
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/medvam/images/cities2.gif
There appears to be one in this map. Probably a nomadic territory.
honestly, it will be slightly deviated from the typical nomad terriotory, as Tulsa and eastern oklahoma resembles more of Arkansas than Kansas or Nebraska. Although I did think of a simular thing with Texas, I decided to walk away from it, because Texas was predominantly nomadic in white's view (ok I will stop with Texas now).

Where are you getting this? "Las Vegas" simply means "The Pastures".



Well, here was my thought: the city had historically been a place that the surrounding empires (Deseret, New Mexico, California and presumably Bajo Colorado) exiled their people based off the myths about the "City of Sin". The Houses took control of the region, claiming the remarkably intact ruins of Vegas as their own. They started a minor hydraulic empire based off of Lake Mead, conquering the surrounding tribes and minor towns. They remained a center for exiles, and then a center for trade. It became a legendary city for the Dineh, and was one of the holiest "Vortices" (more on that in a later post) on the way to the second holiest Vortex in New Agedom, Fifty-One. Its greatest industry, in addition to Dineh pilgrims, was mining of the ancient steel that underlined the city.

It goes through many ups and downs, conquering stretches of the Colorado, maybe even setting up a Dineh dynasty at some point. But, eventually, the happy-happy good times come to an end with the collapse of the Hoover Dam. This throws them into turmoil, undermining goes into overdrive to purchase water to keep armies alive. All culminating in a final climactic battle between the casinos. The great thundering of feet, the great siege engines, and the blood leaching into the ground make it so something's gotta give. And it does, and the city collapses.

As to what it is in the modern-day: the territory itself is a vassal of the Dineh, consisting of a few minor farming villages and trading outposts. Some new town likely serves as the major stopover for pilgrims headed to Fifty-One, though it certainly doesn't attain the fame nor prosperity of Old Vegas.

The city itself is a crater, forbidden to all save the exiles, who are forced into it by the superstitious tribals at knife-point.
Is the Colorado a navigable river? If so, maybe there could be a few outposts on the former lake powell and lake mead areas, if not, probably just a mark on a map to tell where a traveler is going.
 
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tehskyman

Banned
Updated version of New Mexico, with a shiny new map.


By far, the most powerful of the fiefs was the Navajo Nation, which had steadily expanded and absorbed other tribes as the Regression went on. But without a foothold on any of the three major rivers (the Gila, the Colorado, or the Rio Grande) or access to a major copper deposit (essential in making the bronze weapons that dominated the region). They nearly overran New Mexico, before being overthrown by their former ally, the half-Navajo mayor of Two Sun. He conquered Dinetah and New Mexico, and declared himself leader of the Dineh Confederation.

So is bronze still the primary metal of choice in the Southwest? Does this make the trade of iron from the feudal lands and Deseret particularily valuable?
 
So is bronze still the primary metal of choice in the Southwest? Does this make the trade of iron from the feudal lands and Deseret particularily valuable?
It was an idea that was originally jmberry's, but I thought it made sense, both because of the number of copper deposits in the region and because it went along with the Egyptian theme.

But yeah, I imagine iron from Deseret is particularly valuable.
 
@Flashman What happened to California's Christian population? While the Buddhists had the Pacific Northwest to flee to, I don't know where the various Christian sects could flee to.
 
Is Jeffsin a Californian or Cascadian region? Because a Christian Republic of Jeffsin might be interesting as a refuge.
It's too much of a badlands to support any sort of state.

Come to think of it, a lot of them probably did move to the NW, they just ended up converting to Buddhism.
 
Actually, on second thought, while the Jeffsin Marches may be too wild to support a true state, a "Christian State of Jeffsin" could easily exist as some sort of tribal alliance. Almost certainly no executive or even war chief, it would be a rather informal thing that only gathers when an existential crisis faces the marches. But them clinging to their Christianity is a good angle.

Also, as to if it's Cascadian or Californian, it's just what it says: a march. It's a little bit of both.
 
It's too much of a badlands to support any sort of state.

Come to think of it, a lot of them probably did move to the NW, they just ended up converting to Buddhism.

Fair enough. I'm fairly certain I'm just grasping at straws with how the Great Plains are looking to be a desert of "civilized" society.

On an unrelated note, would the "Texarkana" that Kerguelen mentioned in their post on the "Knights of Kuklos" be the Arkansas Territory or the blandly named "Red River Territory"?
Actually, on second thought, while the Jeffsin Marches may be too wild to support a true state, a "Christian State of Jeffsin" could easily exist as some sort of tribal alliance. Almost certainly no executive or even war chief, it would be a rather informal thing that only gathers when an existential crisis faces the marches. But them clinging to their Christianity is a good angle.

Also, as to if it's Cascadian or Californian, it's just what it says: a march. It's a little bit of both.

A tribal pseudo-state would be an interesting thing to read about. Presumably with elements of local native religion and Cascadian Buddhism absorbed via contact. Not to mention elements of the culture of the Scientologist Californias that drove them from the Republic.
 
Fair enough. I'm fairly certain I'm just grasping at straws with how the Great Plains are looking to be a desert of "civilized" society.

On an unrelated note, would the "Texarkana" that Kerguelen mentioned in their post on the "Knights of Kuklos" be the Arkansas Territory or the blandly named "Red River Territory"?
Red River Territory, presumably.
 
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