Medieval America Mark III

Could we get an update regarding this "Kingdom of New Israel"? Is it the entire OTL state? Because It'd be more interesting if it were simply the largest of the nations of the former Lone Star State. Space-filling empires are rather boring.
I didn't mean the Andersons to be an all powerful empire, I meant to depict them as a nomad family ruling a portion of the Texas region, not an entire Texan empire. Sorry I didn't flesh out as much, I haven't experienced writing on AH.com. It was Calvin Anderson's dream to unify the entire Texas, but it's still going to be a long shot unifiing even a fraction of the so-called "Greater Texas".
 
Could we get an update regarding this "Kingdom of New Israel"? Is it the entire OTL state? Because It'd be more interesting if it were simply the largest of the nations of the former Lone Star State. Space-filling empires are rather boring.
Nope, the Andersons only control the agricultural region plus a little bit of hinterland. Otherwise, though, there are probably only cowboy tribes in Texas, no settled states. Maybe a few Voodoo enclaves, but otherwise, the Andersons are the only show in town.

Also, I'm browsing through the original site, and I could've sowrn there are things on some of the pages that weren't there a few months ago...
 
Nope, the Andersons only control the agricultural region plus a little bit of hinterland. Otherwise, though, there are probably only cowboy tribes in Texas, no settled states. Maybe a few Voodoo enclaves, but otherwise, the Andersons are the only show in town.

Also, I'm browsing through the original site, and I could've sowrn there are things on some of the pages that weren't there a few months ago...
Ok, sorry I strayed too much from the original concept.
 
The Loggerjacks
timber-california.jpg

The Loggerjacks
In the great outlands north of Minaesotah and Dakotah, there are forests of towering trees, taller than the greatest redwoods which cover the frozen landscape. Glaciers covered the once mountainous area leaving behind a flat landscape covered with great timberlands and icy rivers. And in these untamed lands, a group of people thrive in the woods surviving upon the gifts of nature for warmth and shelter. The priests of the Rizzini name them spirits of those who have died from the Great Frost while the Iowans call them bloodthirsty savages driven mad by isolation in the great woods. However, this culture is none of those things, they are something greater.

After the Regression that killed off the Old Republic, the people of the Midwest began to learn the ways of old. Guns gave way to the bow and arrow and cars gave way to the horse. The people of the forest retreated deeper and deeper into the woods where they used their felling axes and saws to clear the trees for timber. This wood made up the backbone for their society as it was the fuel to warm their homes and the building blocks for their strange cabins. They too wore the broad-brimmed leather hats of their southern brothers and the deerskin overalls of their siblings in the west. Yet the greatest thing they had was the tales they told.

The loggerjacks could tell strange and fantastic stories about great heroes and fearsome critters. They told stories about their savior, Paul Bunyan, the giant who planted the forests in which they live and Babe the Blue Ox, who guarded the loggerjacks from malevolent spirits. They told tales of how the great Bunyan built a mountain with his bare hands and made it a land of plenty, a Cockayne for the forest folk. And they whispered around the fire about blind hairless bears, hounds with axe-shaped maws, panthers as large as bears, and man-eaters thin as rakes. The people would use the felled logs to build poles in which they carved the faces of monsters and warriors.

However, the loggerjacks are a mere shadow of what their predecessors were. The steel tools they used to fell entire forests have rusted away with wear and tear. The Great Frost has killed hundreds of thousands from famine and the survivors have been forced to travel great and distant routes towards the warmer lands. However, their southern brothers view them with fear and hatred, forcibly removing them from the lands in which they roam. However, the people stand strong for there is a land of plenty over the sunrise and through the mountains which they will call home.
 
Nope, the Andersons only control the agricultural region plus a little bit of hinterland. Otherwise, though, there are probably only cowboy tribes in Texas, no settled states. Maybe a few Voodoo enclaves, but otherwise, the Andersons are the only show in town.

Also, I'm browsing through the original site, and I could've sowrn there are things on some of the pages that weren't there a few months ago...

Are there any civilized, re stable agricultural, societies in the entirety of the Great Plains? Because I don't know why there wouldn't be agriculture along the banks of the numerous rivers of the region. It could have regressed to a feudal structure as farmers gather around "nobles" whose castles protect them from the cowboys.
 

tehskyman

Banned
Are there any civilized, re stable agricultural, societies in the entirety of the Great Plains? Because I don't know why there wouldn't be agriculture along the banks of the numerous rivers of the region. It could have regressed to a feudal structure as farmers gather around "nobles" whose castles protect them from the cowboys.

There isn't any because the herdsmen come in burn and pillage everything and leave
 
Are there any civilized, re stable agricultural, societies in the entirety of the Great Plains? Because I don't know why there wouldn't be agriculture along the banks of the numerous rivers of the region. It could have regressed to a feudal structure as farmers gather around "nobles" whose castles protect them from the cowboys.
According to white, no, there are no stable agricultural societies. Now, I seriously doubt that there is no agriculture, there likely is some along the rivers and in the shadows of the "tells" of the old cities (another post I'm working on), but it's probably low intensity, and subject to constant destruction in raids by rival bands. Cattle herding is just way too darn profitable in comparison, and it's so much easier to launch an attack than it is to mount a defense.

The few settlements there are are going to be quite small, and constantly getting torched and rebuilt. Only exception is around the Black Hills, though I don't see it as particularly prosperous or notable.
 
There isn't any because the herdsmen come in burn and pillage everything and leave
According to white, no, there are no stable agricultural societies. Now, I seriously doubt that there is no agriculture, there likely is some along the rivers and in the shadows of the "tells" of the old cities (another post I'm working on), but it's probably low intensity, and subject to constant destruction in raids by rival bands. Cattle herding is just way too darn profitable in comparison, and it's so much easier to launch an attack than it is to mount a defense.

The few settlements there are are going to be quite small, and constantly getting torched and rebuilt. Only exception is around the Black Hills, though I don't see it as particularly prosperous or notable.
I have no idea why White decided to make the Great Plains the sole territory of pseudo-Mongols. I feel like we should have some posts on Cowboy culture and on to more civilized lands.

Why couldn't there be small agricultural communities built around fortified compounds like medieval castles?
 

tehskyman

Banned
I have no idea why White decided to make the Great Plains the sole territory of pseudo-Mongols. I feel like we should have some posts on Cowboy culture and on to more civilized lands.

Why couldn't there be small agricultural communities built around fortified compounds like medieval castles?

Because in real life that kind of thing never happened.
You don't get farmers in Mongolia or the Eurasian steppe because
1. Its too dry. Your crops won't grow well
2. Its much easier to raise cattle. Not only is it easier, because so much less effort is needed, it is also much more prosperous. The amount of money to be made by extorting agrarian societies and selling them cattle is a lot more than any farmer struggling to make a living along the side of a river can.
3. The herdsmen need those rivers. They huddle there during the winter, to burn the few trees that grow.

So you have a weak farmer population, low density, and struggling to make a living, surrounded by a much more powerful and wealthy polity of violent horsemen. They want your land and dispise your lifestyle for it's "weakness" Clearly, no agrarian society can thrive here. Also just because you have a fort, doesn't make you safe. Your fort cannot possibly cover your fields. When the horsemen come in, they'll leave your fort alone, they'll just keep burning your crops. And then you starve to death
 
Because in real life that kind of thing never happened.
You don't get farmers in Mongolia or the Eurasian steppe because
1. Its too dry. Your crops won't grow well
2. Its much easier to raise cattle. Not only is it easier, because so much less effort is needed, it is also much more prosperous. The amount of money to be made by extorting agrarian societies and selling them cattle is a lot more than any farmer struggling to make a living along the side of a river can.
3. The herdsmen need those rivers. They huddle there during the winter, to burn the few trees that grow.

So you have a weak farmer population, low density, and struggling to make a living, surrounded by a much more powerful and wealthy polity of violent horsemen. They want your land and dispise your lifestyle for it's "weakness" Clearly, no agrarian society can thrive here. Also just because you have a fort, doesn't make you safe. Your fort cannot possibly cover your fields. When the horsemen come in, they'll leave your fort alone, they'll just keep burning your crops. And then you starve to death

Fine. Fair enough. So let's cover the elements of cowboy culture and move on to a region without violent nomadic assholes constantly burning down farms.

Could someone please write something about the Caliphate/Emirate of Kuluradu?
 
The Dineh Confederacy of New Mexico
Updated version of New Mexico, with a shiny new map.

The Dineh Confederacy
Flag_of_New_Mexico.jpg


_medam__the_dineh_confederacy_of_new_mexico_by_gottfreyundroy-dbwr2sr.png

  • System of Government: Hydraulic Empire
    • Head of State:
      • President, chosen by Deathrace
  • Population: 950,000
  • Religion: New Age
    • Totemic Symbol: Zia Sun

"Hear ye, all persons! Ye people as many as ye are! I have done this according to the design of my heart. ... I have restored that which was in ruins, I have raised up that which was unfinished since the Buddhists were in the midst of the Northland [Deseret], and the cowboys were in the midst of them, overthrowing that which was made, while they ruled in ignorance of the Aquarian Way. When I was firm upon the throne of Aquarius, I was ennobled until the two periods of years...I came as Alamagordo flaming against my enemies. My command stands firm like mountains, and the sun's disk shines and spreads rays overy the titulary of my august person, and my eagle rises high above the presidential banner unto all eternity."

-Final State of the Union inscription of President Bill Cisneros, 11th Dynasty

New Mexico is a land at a crossroads. The three rivers, the four corners, and nigh-on a hundred tribes. The modern history of the region began just as the regression did. As air conditioners became less and less viable, more and more people moved out of the "Sun-Belt" for more amicable climes. Besides those few normal Anglos that hunkered down and remained, three groups were left behind: the Hispanics (whose migration slowed as the economy of the US did), the Natives (who had been in these lands since time immemorial and weren't going to move now), and, strangest of all, the New Agers.

Meanwhile, the Southwest was a bloody war-zone. As the US folded, a variety of warlords attempted to re-establish government in their local area, while the Native Tribes rose up to re-claim their homelands. There were no real rules nor permanent alliances, just a Machievallian "every-man-for-himself" type deal.

By far, the most powerful of the fiefs was the Navajo Nation, which had steadily expanded and absorbed other tribes as the Regression went on. But without a foothold on any of the three major rivers (the Gila, the Colorado, or the Rio Grande) or access to a major copper deposit (essential in making the bronze weapons that dominated the region). They nearly overran New Mexico, before being overthrown by their former ally, the half-Navajo mayor of Two Sun. He conquered Dinetah and New Mexico, and declared himself leader of the Dineh Confederation.

From there, the nation has gone through many ups and downs, with as many as ten dynasties. The most recent of these ended with the disastrous reign of the so-called "Gray President" (whose name has been struck from all records). He plunged the nation into civil war between his rival heirs in Santa Fe, Phoenix, and El Paso over who would sit on the throne in splendid Alburquerque. Lifers armed with bronze weapons ravaged the kingdom, causing the valuable rivers to run with blood. Worst of all, there was no President to perform the sacred rites to keep the Other at bay.

Colonel Bill Cisneros, the ruler of Phoenix, finally broke the stalemate a half-century ago. Already controlling the bulk of the kingdom's copper mines, thus forcing the other two claimaints to increasingly rely on Cowboy mercenaries, Bill launched a daring raid that seized the Cibola Salt Mine, completely disrupting his rivals' economy. After a few short battles he was able to enter Alburquerque and crown himself President, claiming a line of descent back to Pre-Regression Navajo rulers. He made the trip to Sacred Roswell, where the Other once touched the World of Man, and made the sacred rituals to keep the Grays placated.

His final act before being buried in his pyramid was to resolve the succession issues that having multiple wives provided - upon his internment, his sons would race from Alburquerque to Roswell. The prince who arrived there first and completed the sacred rites would be hailed as President. The losers would be strangulated. And thus far, it has worked.
 
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Stakes of Deseret: Utah

tehskyman

Banned
Stakes of Deseret: Utah

Utah is an oasis in the desert, a fertile plain amongst hundreds of miles of desert mountains and mountains. Travelling south from Pocatello you ride along the salt road. You will pass traders and travelers as well as mounted legions on the finest horses of Wyoming and Idaho. In the east it is said that to keep the road clear of snow and ice, they spread salt along the paths, a nation so wealthy so powerful, that they can discard salt like some common sand. Now in reality, this doesn't happen, salt is just too valuable for that but this road is called the salt road for a reason.

Imagine yourself, a young mormon soldier. You are the third son of a minor viceroy. Your father's position is not supposed to be hereditary, but over the years this has changed. He has no land for you to inherit so you join the army to find your own way in this world. Your training in the backwaters of Idaho has ended and now your company and you ride to the holy City to bring the word of god to the heathens of the south. As you travel along the salt road you pass and are passed by tens if not hundreds of horses and carts, each carrying several barrels of salt, destined to end up in the hands of Cascadians, Midwesterners or some horseback barbarians. Each one of these barrels worth their weight in gold, they are guarded by soldiers like you, travelling in convoys. Ensuring that the goods make it to market. Later that week you've almost made it to Ogden and now you and your company are about to enter the holy land. You have already technically been in Utah for the last week or so but now you see the truly holy land and you fall to your knees overwhelmed by the beauty of the land. To your right, the Great Salt Lake, the Sea of the Sky, the Oasis of Deseret, the holy waters God showed the prophet Joseph Smith and his acolyte Brigham Young. To your left, the holy wall of the Wasatch Mountains. Their peaks still white from an early October snowfall. And in front of you, a vast plain, the golden fields of wheat and corn not yet harvested. The holy land where the early church spread its roots and cast out the gentile. A truly holy land. Your friends around you do the same, overcome with the same religious zeal, tears in their eyes as they feel closer to god than ever before.

That night you make camp with several monk-warriors veterans. Holy men of the presidential guard. They regale you and your company with stories about the holy land. How the salt flats stretch for miles. Their gleaming white surface blinding those who look too closely. How after the rains, when the surface is covered in water, it becomes a shining mirror that continues past the horizon. A beautiful view that makes you feel as though you are truly in god's kingdom. They tell you of the frontier, the south, all the places they have been. You fall asleep dreaming of strange lands, where the people pray to trees, of a rift in the land so great it could only have come from God's own sword. Of a canyon so deep and wide, it must have been God's temple on earth. Another day goes by and the day after you reach the holy city itself. Salt Lake City. The city by the Sea of the Mountains, the holy city where the prophet Joseph Smith and his holy acolyte Brigham Young brought the Mormon people to be closer to God's embrace. You wander through the narrow streets and alleyways and you stumble into the central square. People and stalls everywhere, selling all sorts of goods. Bread, wine, cheese etc. All for sale in front of the great temple. Though it's spires are not yet fully complete, you are awed by the beauty of the temple. Its gleaming white marble shining in the early morning sun. The spires like the peaks of the Wasatch mountains at your back. You finally know your purpose in life, to defend this temple, defend this land from the devils and daemons that seek to corrupt it. Utah has captured your heart.


Salt Lake City has the largest Salt markets across the entirety of what was once the US. However calling them markets is inaccurate. The Desereti government has a monopoly on salt extraction and foreign merchants can only purchase it from the government in Salt auctions. The great salt auction hall is located in the heart of the holy city. Not in the central square in front of the temple, but close enough. Other guilds like the guild of ceramics have similar auction halls, selling goods from April to October, before the snows set in and close off the mountain passes. Every morning at the crack of sunrise during that time, purchase rights go up for sale. Merchants bid on the price at which they will buy barrels at. Bidding ends after a maximum of 15 minutes. For the rest of the hour, merchants will negotiate the purchase of barrels from the government at the set price. It is for this reason that various merchant houses will band together and bid together so that the price will not escalate enormously. The bidding price starts at 1.5 times the price of extraction. At the end of every day, whatever salt that was not sold will go to government chartered merchants to sell themselves in markets in Pocatello, Casper, Boise and beyond. Government chartered merchants have access to the excess salt as well as a certain percentage of all salt extracted. Chartered merchants are able to buy the salt at the set 1.5 times the price of extraction and do not have to bid. Extraneously ,chartered merchants often enter auctions to bid up the price.
In addition to Salt, Mormon ceramics are quite valued in the East, their glass works especially so. Porcelain sculptures of mountain sheep and birds are treasured across the continent. Bowls and Vases dyed with brilliant reds and oranges, deep blues and pure whites are renowned from California to Ohio.

All these luxury goods feed the opulence that is the Mormon President. Sitting in his throne inside the great temple complex, he commands an empire and lives in pure and total luxury. Like the ancient Persian shahs that came before him, he is bedecked in fine goods from across the continent. Californian Wines and gold, Texan beef, Cascadian fish. His is an empire that lives off of trade and while they keep the herdsmen at bay, trade prospers and blooms. Every night, he sleeps with a different concubine. 100 of the finest women in the whole empire, his private harem, they call them the desert roses. His children plentiful, his brothers supporting him as his council. The Mormon President is a god amongst men and his will is absolute.

Foreign Relations And Utah

The Desert Empires of the South: Contact with these nations is sparse. In between Salt Lake City and the cores of these empires lie hundreds of miles of desert and canyon and mountains. The impassable terrain means that both sides generally keep to themselves. In fact the only place where Deseret maintain a formal relation with the Dineh Confederacy is Lee's ferry, the one place for hundreds of miles where one can ford the Colorado. Both nations maintain a small fort on both sides of the river, crossing only to declare to the other side when a ruler has died and another takes their place. Occasion trade between Mormon merchants and tribesmen occurs here too, generally, medicinal plants and sheep products in exchange for weapons and Mormon favour. Iron/ Steel weapons are a rarity in the desert and the Mormons have enough to give around. All they ask is for some time which always begins with "Have you found Jesus?". The missionary work never ends, only now the young men in front of you are warrior monks.

Mormon tribes of Eastern Utah and Nevada: Mormon soldiers will often patrol the deserts where Mormon tribespeople reside. They'll bring with them holy books and preach to them, showing off Mormon power and generally keeping them in line. They'll also mediate disputes and conflicts between clans using the holy power conferred to the commander as the final word. Weapons and armor are frequently traded or gifted to these tribesmen. This allows them to repel attack from Californian or Dineh patrols and keeps them happy. Often times the Desereti will build small outposts in the desert to guard important trade routes and watch for foolish incursions.
 
Updated version of New Mexico, with a shiny new map.

The Dineh Confederacy
Flag_of_New_Mexico.jpg


_medam__the_dineh_confederacy_of_new_mexico_by_gottfreyundroy-dbwr2sr.png

  • System of Government: Hydraulic Empire
    • Head of State:
      • President, chosen by Deathrace
  • Population: 950,000
  • Religion: New Age
    • Totemic Symbol: Zia Sun

"Hear ye, all persons! Ye people as many as ye are! I have done this according to the design of my heart. ... I have restored that which was in ruins, I have raised up that which was unfinished since the Buddhists were in the midst of the Northland [Deseret], and the cowboys were in the midst of them, overthrowing that which was made, while they ruled in ignorance of the Aquarian Way. When I was firm upon the throne of Aquarius, I was ennobled until the two periods of years...I came as Alamagordo flaming against my enemies. My command stands firm like mountains, and the sun's disk shines and spreads rays overy the titulary of my august person, and my eagle rises high above the presidential banner unto all eternity."

-Final State of the Union inscription of President Bill Cisneros, 11th Dynasty

New Mexico is a land at a crossroads. The three rivers, the four corners, and nigh-on a hundred tribes. The modern history of the region began just as the regression did. As air conditioners became less and less viable, more and more people moved out of the "Sun-Belt" for more amicable climes. Besides those few normal Anglos that hunkered down and remained, three groups were left behind: the Hispanics (whose migration slowed as the economy of the US did), the Natives (who had been in these lands since time immemorial and weren't going to move now), and, strangest of all, the New Agers.

Meanwhile, the Southwest was a bloody war-zone. As the US folded, a variety of warlords attempted to re-establish government in their local area, while the Native Tribes rose up to re-claim their homelands. There were no real rules nor permanent alliances, just a Machievallian "every-man-for-himself" type deal.

By far, the most powerful of the fiefs was the Navajo Nation, which had steadily expanded and absorbed other tribes as the Regression went on. But without a foothold on any of the three major rivers (the Gila, the Colorado, or the Rio Grande) or access to a major copper deposit (essential in making the bronze weapons that dominated the region). They nearly overran New Mexico, before being overthrown by their former ally, the half-Navajo mayor of Two Sun. He conquered Dinetah and New Mexico, and declared himself leader of the Dineh Confederation.

From there, the nation has gone through many ups and downs, with as many as ten dynasties. The most recent of these ended with the disastrous reign of the so-called "Gray President" (whose name has been struck from all records). He plunged the nation into civil war between his rival heirs in Santa Fe, Phoenix, and El Paso over who would sit on the throne in splendid Alburquerque. Lifers armed with bronze weapons ravaged the kingdom, causing the valuable rivers to run with blood. Worst of all, there was no President to perform the sacred rites to keep the Other at bay.

Colonel Bill Cisneros, the ruler of Phoenix, finally broke the stalemate a half-century ago. Already controlling the bulk of the kingdom's copper mines, thus forcing the other two claimaints to increasingly rely on Cowboy mercenaries, Bill launched a daring raid that seized the Cibola Salt Mine, completely disrupting his rivals' economy. After a few short battles he was able to enter Alburquerque and crown himself President, claiming a line of descent back to Pre-Regression Navajo rulers. He made the trip to Sacred Roswell, where the Other once touched the World of Man, and made the sacred rituals to keep the Greys placated.
His final act before being buried in his pyramid was to resolve the succession issues that having multiple wives provided - upon his internment, his sons would race from Alburquerque to Roswell. The prince who arrived there first and completed the sacred rites would be hailed as President. The losers would be strangulated. And thus far, it has worked.

  1. Is Kuluradu based out of Cheyenne Mountain?
  2. What's the situation in Vegas?
  3. Does Dineh rule Arizona and New Mexico or are they associated states?
  4. Is Baja Colorado a little bit of Mexico?
All in all, that's a pretty great map.
 

tehskyman

Banned
  1. Is Kuluradu based out of Cheyenne Mountain?
  2. What's the situation in Vegas?
  3. Does Dineh rule Arizona and New Mexico or are they associated states?
  4. Is Baja Colorado a little bit of Mexico?
All in all, that's a pretty great map.

1. Kuluradu is based on an idea that muslims across America would journey to Colorado in fear of being crusaded out of existence. There are the federal supermax prisons in Colorado ATM and they are the bases from which muslim colorado grew out of

2. Vegas lives off of the water that the Hoover Dam retains. Over time, the Hoover and the Glen Canyon Dams will fail so the situation in Vegas depends on the year

4. It's its own little state based around the colorado river delta.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...discussion-thread.259115/page-17#post-8460940
 
  1. Is Kuluradu based out of Cheyenne Mountain?
  2. What's the situation in Vegas?
  3. Does Dineh rule Arizona and New Mexico or are they associated states?
  4. Is Baja Colorado a little bit of Mexico?
All in all, that's a pretty great map.
1. I suppose an outpost at Chyenne is possible, but the bulk of it is not.

2. It's a collapsed ruin with few inhabitants.

3. Yes, it's effectively an empire, with New Mexico being the most powerful region. Arizona is the most independent-minded, however.

3. Yes.
 
1. I suppose an outpost at Chyenne is possible, but the bulk of it is not.

2. It's a collapsed ruin with few inhabitants.

3. Yes, it's effectively an empire, with New Mexico being the most powerful region. Arizona is the most independent-minded, however.

3. Yes.

1. Since it's an incredibly secure location that'll last thousands of years it'd be foolish not to at least place an outpost there.

2. So a town/village in the ruins of a city?

3. An earlier post mentioned an "empire of New Mexico". Is this not canon anymore?

4. Will you be making other maps like this one? It's really good and I'd like to see how you'd approach other areas we'd be covering.
 
1. Since it's an incredibly secure location that'll last thousands of years it'd be foolish not to at least place an outpost there.

2. So a town/village in the ruins of a city?

3. An earlier post mentioned an "empire of New Mexico". Is this not canon anymore?

4. Will you be making other maps like this one? It's really good and I'd like to see how you'd approach other areas we'd be covering.
1. In the last thread I think someone claimed it would've collapsed by now. Now I'm personally disinclined to believe that, but I was also disinclined to believe it about the Hoover Dam, so.

2. More or less.

3. No, it is. This is effectively a new Mexican affair: as I said, it is a confederacy in name only.

4. Probably.
 
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