Keynes' Cruisers

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Cryhavoc101

Any British Carriers Available for Bathhouse or is this intended to be a massive 'Well Fuck You Then' response from the USA with regards to Germanys Declaration of war and therefore a purely all US affair?
 

fester

Cryhavoc101 said:
Any British Carriers Available for Bathhouse or is this intended to be a massive 'Well Fuck You Then' response from the USA with regards to Germanys Declaration of war and therefore a purely all US affair?
Click to expand...
The potentially available carriers are:
Yorktown
Wasp
Constellation

Illustrious
Indomitable
Furious
 
Rorke

Rorke

In one of the stories fester said it was going to use at least 4 carriers, so I think at least one British flattop will be used.
 
Story 0967
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    • fester

    December 17, 1941 Reunion

    A battleship and a trio of cruisers swung lazily at anchor. An aviso was taking on fuel while a pair of pre-war light bombers patrolled the waters immediately around Reunion. A light cruiser was scheduled to steam around Madagascar to show the flag and support the Vichy governor's hold on power but that was not scheduled until after Christmas. Lorraine had not left sight of the island in almost a year and then that was for a single hour of gunnery drills.

    December 17, 1941 Martinique

    Four battleships and two battle cruisers swung at anchor. The sea breeze was refreshing as the skeleton crews aboard Dunkerque chipped and repainted her bridge. A single cruiser had departed the anchorage to patrol the waters near Guyane. Algerie had previously carried out that patrol but she had returned the night before. Within the harbor, a single American destroyer was taking on fuel. She would leave within twelve hours out of respect of the convoluted form of neutrality Vichy and her navy had to observe.
     
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    • Driftless

    Driftless

    Donor
    fester said:
    December 17, 1941 Martinique

    Four battleships and two battle cruisers swung at anchor. The sea breeze was refreshing as the skeleton crews aboard Dunkerque chipped and repainted her bridge. A single cruiser had departed the anchorage to patrol the waters near Guyane. Algerie had previously carried out that patrol but she had returned the night before. Within the harbor, a single American destroyer was taking on fuel. She would leave within twelve hours out of respect of the convoluted form of neutrality Vichy and her navy had to observe.
    Click to expand...

    Discrete and diplomatic flag showing and counting Vichy noses by the American's?
     
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    Errolwi

    Monthly Donor
    Ramp-Rat said:
    It’s December 1941, not 1943, the Atlantic Wall, doesn’t exist yet, though there is no doubt that the port has heavy defences. However the majority of the antiaircraft guns will be 88’s, optimised for dealing with the RAF heavy bombers, not the light 30mil and 40mil, needed to deal with a low level torpedo bomber attack. Exactly how meany escorts do the twins have in port with them, where are they mored relative to the twins, and do they have clear firing lanes. Not good if every shot that you fire at an attacking torpedo bomber that misses, hits your sister ship, or the base maintenance area. If the British night attack is a two level attempt, who do you fire at, the dive bomber about to drop an egg down your funnel, or the torpedo bomber about to launch a fish at one of the twins? Things could get even worse if someone lets off the smoke pots, and the harbour becomes enveloped in smoke. Unless the Germans are fully prepared and waiting for an attack, it’s going to be totally confusion and mayhem, with each ship fighting its own battle to survive. If the British achieve total surprise, and the first the Germans know of the attack is the alarms going off, and the first torpedo hitting the water. Then the Germans are going to be in a world of hurt, and suffering significant losses.

    RR.
    Click to expand...

    No reason to think that the Brits won't be trying to knock them out ITTL like OTL. So a constant stream of attacks, similar to what I posted (from WP)
    https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/page-285#post-16108087
    between 10 December and 20 January 1942, 37 percent of Bomber Command sorties were flown against the ships at Brest.​
     
    Rorke

    Rorke

    In the event that Operation Bathhouse goes forward, and the Americans are involved in it, will Devastators be used, or have the squadrons been reequipped with Avengers?
     

    Oldbill

    fester said:
    December 17, 1941 Reunion

    A battleship and a trio of cruisers swung lazily at anchor. An aviso was taking on fuel while a pair of pre-war light bombers patrolled the waters immediately around Reunion. A light cruiser was scheduled to steam around Madagascar to show the flag and support the Vichy governor's hold on power but that was not scheduled until after Christmas. Lorraine had not left sight of the island in almost a year and then that was for a single hour of gunnery drills.

    December 17, 1941 Martinique

    Four battleships and two battle cruisers swung at anchor. The sea breeze was refreshing as the skeleton crews aboard Dunkerque chipped and repainted her bridge. A single cruiser had departed the anchorage to patrol the waters near Guyane. Algerie had previously carried out that patrol but she had returned the night before. Within the harbor, a single American destroyer was taking on fuel. She would leave within twelve hours out of respect of the convoluted form of neutrality Vichy and her navy had to observe.
    Click to expand...


    Aw crap... Did I miss/forget the parts of the story where this divergence occurred?
     

    fester

    Driftless said:
    Discrete and diplomatic flag showing and counting Vichy noses by the American's?
    Click to expand...
    There had been several posts about the USN guaranteeing the security of the French navy in Martinique.

    Oldbill said:
    Aw crap... Did I miss/forget the parts of the story where this divergence occurred?
    Click to expand...

    https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/page-123#post-15027366

    https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/page-57#post-14166642

    https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/page-57#post-14172302 the change in Catapult

    There were two waves of fleet movement to Martinique.

    The first wave was the modern ships (Richelieu, Jean Bart, Dunkerque, Strasbourg) and cruisers as the surety for the US to rebuild the French Army https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/page-48#post-14099277 (May 1940)

    The second wave was from the ships at MEK in TTL during a changed Operation Catapult.


    As far as Lorraine, she left repairs at Alexandria for Reunion on August 16, 1940 https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/page-60#post-14207630

    The RN logic is that they did not care if there is a non-allied battleship at a port in the middle of the Indian Ocean with insufficient facilities to effectively support offensive operations for long as long as the naval balance was in their favor in the Med and the eastern Atlantic. Demobilizing the battleship at Alexandria would have been a preferable outcome but sending the ship to Reunion to chill for the rest of the war is a face saving gesture for Vichy,
     
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    Palantir

    fester said:
    he first wave was the modern ships (Richeleau, Jean Bart, Dunkerque, Strasbourg)
    Click to expand...

    It's Richelieu, the cardinal was a very competent statesman and the creator of the french navy (at least in any meaningfull way).

    The Jean Bart wasn't finished in otl (lacking a turret) during the war. In 1943, she was back on the allied side after staying in Casablanca and multiples combat damages and it was not deemed worthy To finish her as a battleship and there was even a proposition to converther into an aircraft carrier.
    What will be her fate ittl? Only Fester knows
     

    fester

    Palantir said:
    It's Richelieu, the cardinal was a very competent statesman and the creator of the french navy (at least in any meaningfull way).

    The Jean Bart wasn't finished in otl (lacking a turret) during the war. In 1943, she was back on the allied side after staying in Casablanca and multiples combat damages and it was not deemed worthy To finish her as a battleship and there was even a proposition to converther into an aircraft carrier.
    What will be her fate ittl? Only Fester knows
    Click to expand...
    Jean Bart is still not completed in this timeline.
     
    Ramp-Rat

    Ramp-Rat

    Monthly Donor
    The chances of ether the British or American fleets running into a transiting U-Boat, is dependant on how meany there were at sea. According to uboat.net, which has a graph of the numbers at sea month by month, in December 1941, it was twenty (20). So I make it that there wasn’t a stream of boats, on passage, just the odd one or two. The Admiralty submarine plotting room, should have had a very good idea, where they all were and be able to steer, the respective fleets around them. You don’t begin to get the really big numbers of U-Boats until August 1942, so an operation in February, less than twenty boats at sea. Stands very little or no chance of being detected, by ether a U-Boat or maritime reconnaissance aircraft. The problem for the attacking force will be the weather, they need a twenty four hours clear spell, to mount the attack. But given the much better metrology available to the allies, they should be able to forecast this. Its just a case of having both fleets at sea and holding, until the met boys give the word. Even if they wait until May/June, the number of U-Boats at sea only just creeps over the twenty mark. So personally I believe that the most important factor in an attack would be, are the twins still there, need to get in quick, and do you have the clear weather.

    RR.
     

    Peg Leg Pom

    Rorke said:
    In one of the stories fester said it was going to use at least 4 carriers, so I think at least one British flattop will be used.
    Click to expand...

    As the first opportunity to demonstrate the new Anglo-American alliance taking offensive rather than defensive action against the Axis the attacking force would be 50-50 British and American.
     
    Story 0968
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    • fester


    December 17, 1941 0733 North of Tripoli

    Hermione twisted, chasing splashes like a cat chasing a rolling ball of yarn. Fiji and Glasgow’s barrels were overheating and their magazines were running low. Half a dozen Swordfish from Eagle passed over the cruisers’ masts. The captains of the Italian cruisers were faced with the choice of continuing to allow their 100 millimeter guns to continue to throw shells at the edge of their range at the British cruisers or to allow them to perform their anti-aircraft mission.

    The four Italian light cruisers switched their fire to the torpedo bombers. As the bombers dove for the deck, Hermione made smoke and disappeared from easy viewing in the Italian ranger finders. Five bombers dropped their torpedoes, four would land on Eagle while the fifth crashed next to a destroyer. None of the torpedoes hit, the Italian cruiser Garibaldi was ably handled and aptly dodged the attack.

    Neither side wanted to continue the engagement. Italian bombers were already seen on the radar rising from airfields near Tripoli. The Royal Navy’s cruiser screen needed to hold tight to the carriers and battleships while the Italian convoy would soon enter the coastal artillery zone near Tripoli so the Italians had achieved their mission of landing the convoy. By eight o’clock, both forces decided to break contact and retire to their bases as an inconclusive result was an acceptable result for everyone.
     
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