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As the historical attack on Gneisenau showed, they have plenty of AA and torpedo bombers are horribly vulnerable they when have to fly past well-armed escorts.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
It’s December 1941, not 1943, the Atlantic Wall, doesn’t exist yet, though there is no doubt that the port has heavy defences. However the majority of the antiaircraft guns will be 88’s, optimised for dealing with the RAF heavy bombers, not the light 30mil and 40mil, needed to deal with a low level torpedo bomber attack. Exactly how meany escorts do the twins have in port with them, where are they mored relative to the twins, and do they have clear firing lanes. Not good if every shot that you fire at an attacking torpedo bomber that misses, hits your sister ship, or the base maintenance area. If the British night attack is a two level attempt, who do you fire at, the dive bomber about to drop an egg down your funnel, or the torpedo bomber about to launch a fish at one of the twins? Things could get even worse if someone lets off the smoke pots, and the harbour becomes enveloped in smoke. Unless the Germans are fully prepared and waiting for an attack, it’s going to be totally confusion and mayhem, with each ship fighting its own battle to survive. If the British achieve total surprise, and the first the Germans know of the attack is the alarms going off, and the first torpedo hitting the water. Then the Germans are going to be in a world of hurt, and suffering significant losses.
RR.
RR.
Nope, Ranger's air group will be raided for reinforcements while Hornet is not ready.
If Bathhouse goes forward, Yorktown, Wasp, Constellation are the American carriers that could plausibly participate.
Kenneth Campbell's VC citation:
TBH it's hard to interpret this. Should we say that he achieved a hit, so the defences can't have been that good? Or were they surprised? Or was he just lucky to survive so long?
I don't know what armament those AA ships had, but they would have been aware of the threat of torpedo attack and they must have had some light AA.
TBH it's hard to interpret this. Should we say that he achieved a hit, so the defences can't have been that good? Or were they surprised? Or was he just lucky to survive so long?
I don't know what armament those AA ships had, but they would have been aware of the threat of torpedo attack and they must have had some light AA.
Closest German ship that would have the number of AA guns to qualify as a AA ship would be the Type-1936 and 1936a class destroyers, with lots of 3.7 cm and 2 cm AA cannons.
At least Admiral Kidd and Captain Van Valkenburgh is alive ITTL.
Robert R. Scott and Thomas Reeves probably dead though. How many casualties on California? And during the attack in general?
Some thoughts on Bathhouse.
1. No matter if the operation happens or is considered too dangerous both navies will have already improved their coordination and learned from each other by simply going through the theoretical exercise (the war gaming). If the planning goes further and there is some more practical exercises both navies could benefit: the RN could get some experience in dealing with large air groups. Yes, most of the British carriers can sustain a limited number of planes but this number can be increased with deck parks in some theatres (not North Atlanticish ones mostly), the RN can benefit from the US experience in dive bombers and see that the FAA pilots could gain much with extra training in this area (if I remember correctly both the Swordfish and the Albacore were decent dive bombers. The USN could benefit with the experience in night attacks learned from the RN and the fighter direction thing that the British have been putting into practice in the Mediterranean. Now, extra points if in one of the exercises they use real torpedoes against a real target and they find out that something strange is happening with the US torpedoes while the British ones work just fine (I know, I know, this is unlikely to happen) which could led to embarrassing questions being asked and more testing being done and certain problems being detected earlier in the war.
2. On the operation. Surprise is very important but maybe one option would be start the attack with a major raid from the RAF bombers, an all out effort. They would drop high explosive and incendiaries since direct hits would be unlikely. The goal would be to damage the surrounding area and the AA defences with the high explosives, maybe dislocating the anti torpedo nets while the incendiaries would start fires that would light the targets nicely adding some smoke and causing chaos. Then, one hour later the carrier strike arrives, after the attack the carrier planes continue north in order to land in the British airfields of Cornwall as the carriers would have already turned around the moment that the last bomber left the deck and would be putting distance between them and the German airfields. I'm not sure it's a good plan since it would ruin surprise and I'm not sure if at this point of the war the RAF bombers would be able to cause enough damage to compensate the expected high loses. To say nothing of the RAF willingness to conduct such operation.
1. No matter if the operation happens or is considered too dangerous both navies will have already improved their coordination and learned from each other by simply going through the theoretical exercise (the war gaming). If the planning goes further and there is some more practical exercises both navies could benefit: the RN could get some experience in dealing with large air groups. Yes, most of the British carriers can sustain a limited number of planes but this number can be increased with deck parks in some theatres (not North Atlanticish ones mostly), the RN can benefit from the US experience in dive bombers and see that the FAA pilots could gain much with extra training in this area (if I remember correctly both the Swordfish and the Albacore were decent dive bombers. The USN could benefit with the experience in night attacks learned from the RN and the fighter direction thing that the British have been putting into practice in the Mediterranean. Now, extra points if in one of the exercises they use real torpedoes against a real target and they find out that something strange is happening with the US torpedoes while the British ones work just fine (I know, I know, this is unlikely to happen) which could led to embarrassing questions being asked and more testing being done and certain problems being detected earlier in the war.
2. On the operation. Surprise is very important but maybe one option would be start the attack with a major raid from the RAF bombers, an all out effort. They would drop high explosive and incendiaries since direct hits would be unlikely. The goal would be to damage the surrounding area and the AA defences with the high explosives, maybe dislocating the anti torpedo nets while the incendiaries would start fires that would light the targets nicely adding some smoke and causing chaos. Then, one hour later the carrier strike arrives, after the attack the carrier planes continue north in order to land in the British airfields of Cornwall as the carriers would have already turned around the moment that the last bomber left the deck and would be putting distance between them and the German airfields. I'm not sure it's a good plan since it would ruin surprise and I'm not sure if at this point of the war the RAF bombers would be able to cause enough damage to compensate the expected high loses. To say nothing of the RAF willingness to conduct such operation.
Story 0963
December 16, 1941 Manila Bay
The heavy guns of Fort Mills tracked the gray painted ships. The river gunboat Oahu led the four ships through the permanent defensive minefields of the Harbor Defense Command. Walker, Meredith, Bush and Renshaw filed past the fortresses in the middle of the channel and the green peninsula of Bataan to the north. Each minelayer had left the damaged naval base at Cavite with seventy five mines the night before. They sprinted north along the Bataan Peninsula and then across Subic Bay before entering Lingayan Gulf. Each destroyer had their own target area. As soon as they arrived at the designated spots in Lingayan Gulf, the mines were rolled off the stern. Thick, dense fields were laid as the destroyers scrambled to get under the cover of anti-aircraft guns and the three score pursuit planes that still were available to defend the Greater Manila area.
Story 0964
December 16, 1941 Rhodes
The submarine sailed past the Fort of Saint Nicholas. She had completed the first part of her journey. Once she docked, she would unload a few crates of spare parts, but that was not her primary mission. Instead she would spend the next two days reinspecting the three chariots attached to her deck and training with the swimmers who would ride those fragile little craft into the heart of the British controlled harbor of Alexandria.
Story 0965
December 16, 1941 Gulf of Thailand
HMS Rorqual shuddered for the last time. The fiftieth and final mine rolled down the conveyor belt and entered the dark waters of the Gulf of Thailand. Japanese convoys were bringing a
steady flow of supplies and reinforcements to the ports of Singora and Pattani. The RAF had been attempting to bomb those ships but the thick fighter cover that the Japanese Army had been able to maintain made that task too expensive. Surface ships could raid into the Gulf, but they would pay the price of air attack at least once if not on both entry and exit. Submarines were the best choice to slow the flow of supplies. Somewhere to the north of Rorqual, Porpoise was laying her own field while a trio of T-class boats were patrolling the sea lanes off of the French Indochina coast.
Story 0966
December 16, 1941 Central Mediterranean
Fighters patrolled over the convoy. Some of the fighters were from Formidable, some of the fighters were Hurricanes flying out of Malta. A single submarine claimed a pair of freighters. The close escort claimed the submarine and had a trio of prisoners to validate the claim. A coterie of minesweepers had emerged from the Grand Habor. They would lead the convoy for the last few hours until they could dock. Even as the most local of escorts formed up on the merchant ships, the destroyers and cruisers that had been on alert for the dash from Benghazi to Malta had heeled over and started to head south as signal intercepts had indicated an Italian convoy was due to arrive at Tripoli some time during the next day. Eagle and Formidable were already looking for the convoy as Queen Elizabeth and Warspite prepared for battle.
[QUOTE="RyderWest, post: 16146322, member: 82650]
At least Admiral Kidd and Captain Van Valkenburgh is alive ITTL.
Robert R. Scott and Thomas Reeves probably dead though. How many casualties on California? And during the attack in general?[/QUOTE]
They almost definitely are dead, and with the presumed loss of life on the California, I doubt that anyone will be there to give the evidence needed for a MoH citation
At least Admiral Kidd and Captain Van Valkenburgh is alive ITTL.
Robert R. Scott and Thomas Reeves probably dead though. How many casualties on California? And during the attack in general?[/QUOTE]
They almost definitely are dead, and with the presumed loss of life on the California, I doubt that anyone will be there to give the evidence needed for a MoH citation
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