Map Thread XVII

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Into the Firmament: Sol System, 2300
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I'm headed to bed but I will answer questions in the morning.
 
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Something I've been working on in fits and starts. Still have to get to the Americas: trying to figure out how to make all that North America that the Aztecs either don't control or only vaguely overlord in interesting.

Ottoman Empire:
Grand Vizier: "So, should we conquer Egypt or Ireland?"
Ottoman Sultan: "Ireland. Definitely Ireland."

Maori Empire:
When you import Ottoman muskets and accidentally conquer half the Pacific.

Also, interesting Gurkha Tibet.

KHANATE OF MONGOLIA (Czar is also Khan.)
Sternberg's dream achieved!

Into the Firmament: Sol System, 2300
link for full-size viewing because even the second viewing level is too big for AH.com​
I might need a 24th-century orbital habitat's supercomputer to load this image. :p
 
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Grand Vizier: "So, should we conquer Egypt or Ireland?"
Ottoman Sultan: "Ireland. Definitely Ireland."

:closedeyesmile:

They used to rule all of North Africa, but lost it later: the real question is why it's easier to hold onto Spain than Egypt... how about it, Mr. Silverberg?

(Huh. All of a sudden I realize that Robert Silverberg, judging from his name, may be Jewish. If this has ever occurred to me before, I can't recall.)
 
Something I've been working on in fits and starts. Still have to get to the Americas: trying to figure out how to make all that North America that the Aztecs either don't control or only vaguely overlord in interesting.

View attachment 358287

Shouldn’t Upper and Lower Polands’ names be reversed?

I mean, upper poland is down compared to the carpathian highlands AND is downstream of the major rivers. Should be lower Poland. Vice versa for the other.
 
Shouldn’t Upper and Lower Polands’ names be reversed?

I mean, upper poland is down compared to the carpathian highlands AND is downstream of the major rivers. Should be lower Poland. Vice versa for the other.

Sound logical.

I was probably thinking of maps, but in this world South would probably be on top of the maps anyway, no?
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Original post in the series here: Map Thread XVII

TERRITORIAL EVOLUTION OF CHINA

Very cool scenario, although I have to wonder how ultra-strict neo-Legalism could be the basis for a very successful country. It works as the basis for a war economy, of course (see: waaring state of Qin), but when the war is over, Legalism can no longer be justified by the emergency situation, and everyone figures out it's making their lives shit (see: the Qin dynasty lasting exactly one generation before being overthrown).

Something that has "overregulate every single aspect of society", "death penalty for EVERYTHING!" and "let's bring back archaic practices that serve no purpose!" as main tenets could still function for a while, but too-rigid systems must either mellow out after a few decades (like communist China in OTL) or crash and burn (like the USSR in OTL).

Is there an in-universe explanation for neo-Legalism's overwhelming success?
 
:closedeyesmile:

They used to rule all of North Africa, but lost it later: the real question is why it's easier to hold onto Spain than Egypt... how about it, Mr. Silverberg?

(Huh. All of a sudden I realize that Robert Silverberg, judging from his name, may be Jewish. If this has ever occurred to me before, I can't recall.)

No, the real question is how they managed to conquer and assimilate all of Western Europe while at the same time failing to pacify bumfuck Arabia.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
This is a map of Persia and all its constituting "states" in a scenario I'm making. It comes about due to a lack of Iskander - and later a lack of Rome - leading to the adoption of a Mandate of Heaven-esque ideology when the Achaemenid dynasty eventually falls.

Almost forgot to comment on this! Awesome idea. Our brains must be on the same frequency, by the way: I'm just now putting the finishing touches to a map that shows a vast empire with a Mandate of Heaven-esque ideology, which even happens to also include Persia and has a POD not that far from yours, except 'in reverse'. In my scenario, it's not a lack of Alexander, but Alexander living 23 years longer than in OTL. (I'll post it later. Let's contrast and compare! :cool: )

Anyway, while my naming conventions fit the theme of "Alexander's empire lasts for a thousand years and language gets kind of weird", I think I can help with Persian names for various satrapies:

Ionia = Yauna

Caria = Karya and Karka are both given in various sources

Lydia = Sparda

Phrygia = Tayaiy Drayahya (one souce mentioned this; can't verify)

Cappadocia = Katpatuka

Cilicia = Kilikya and Hilakku are both given in various sources

Armenia = Armini(y)a

Assyria = Ashora (or Ashura; this varies from source to source)

Babylonia = Babirush(a)

Colchis = Kolkha

Zigiia = no idea, but should be 'Zyx' in Greek (it's the region's actual historical name)

Saka = Saka Paradraya

Alania = Alanya, I'd suspect

Albania = Ardhan

[a whole lot outside Persia; no sensible guesses for those, I'm afraid]

Shirvan = Shathrapan (a more archaic version of the same word)

East and West Media = East and West Mada

Susiana = Uvja / Uvya / Uviya / Uja / Uya have all been suggested

Hyrcania = Varkana

Daikos = ???

Jul = ???

Persia = Parsa

Parthia = Parthava

Dahae = Daha

Turan = same, actually

Kema = ???

Karmania = Karman(y)a

Sagartia = Asagartiya

Aria = Haraiva

Chorasmia = Uvarazmiya

Gedro-Sattagidya = based on Gedrosia [= Maka] and Sattagidya [= Thatagush(a)], so some merging of those names? Makthagusha, perhaps?

Drangiana = Zranga

Arachosia = Harauvatish(a)

Bactia = should be 'Bactria', but in Old Persian Bakhtrish / Baxtrish

Hindush-Gandara = same

Ferghana = Farghana

Sogdia = Soguda

Massagetae = Saka Tigraxauda

[Can't really help you with the ones after that, I'm afraid]
 
<snip map>
This is a map of Persia and all its constituting "states" in a scenario I'm making. It comes about due to a lack of Iskander - and later a lack of Rome - leading to the adoption of a Mandate of Heaven-esque ideology when the Achaemenid dynasty eventually falls. Its largely based off a map of Achaemenid satrapies I found, but rather obviously expanded and altered slightly to break up up the larger ones and merge some of the smaller ones.

I wanted to use better, more realistic, more Persianised names for the 'states' but I was tired when I made this so eh. I might remake it in the future if I ever work up the energy.

As someone else who has done a Persia-wank map, I approve. :cool:
 
Interesting.



Not Germany? They're the ones who won the war and are a lot closer to the Russian heartland than China.

Do you have a link to that previous TL/map series? (Thanks in advance if you do! :biggrin: )

Yeah, China and Germany worked together to dismantle the USSR, of course. It was just a poorly worded expression I guess. The link to the previous map in the series is in the post, right above the map. ;)


Very cool scenario, although I have to wonder how ultra-strict neo-Legalism could be the basis for a very successful country. It works as the basis for a war economy, of course (see: waaring state of Qin), but when the war is over, Legalism can no longer be justified by the emergency situation, and everyone figures out it's making their lives shit (see: the Qin dynasty lasting exactly one generation before being overthrown).

Something that has "overregulate every single aspect of society", "death penalty for EVERYTHING!" and "let's bring back archaic practices that serve no purpose!" as main tenets could still function for a while, but too-rigid systems must either mellow out after a few decades (like communist China in OTL) or crash and burn (like the USSR in OTL).

Is there an in-universe explanation for neo-Legalism's overwhelming success?

Yeah, it mellowed out a bit. The description was of China around 2004-2030, their ultra-strict period of "DEATH PENALTY" and "traditional practices." They, after Teng died in 2031, mellowed out a fair deal, no longer encouraging (though not abolishing) foot binding, and scaling back big-time on the whole "DEATH PENALTY" thing. Things are still harsh under Chinese rule, but not as harsh. The regulations are still everywhere, the exams still far too rigorous, and nationalism is still seen as a requirement for any "non-traitorous" Chinese citizen, but its not a hellhole anymore.

It succeeds because of their extremely qualified "elected" officials, which, while democratically elected, all have to pass so many government exams that it's basically a small clique that rules China; it's large enough, however, that the Chinese citizens don't care enough to rebel, combined with the hyper-nationalism keeping them in line. Another factor in its success is near-constant surveillance of citizens, made possible from 2020-on by advances in technology. It sounds all horrible, but the average income is actually quite livable, and by 2040 luxury goods were common among China's people. The entertainment scene is vibrant, and China is considered by the LoN to be a "low-functioning democracy." Life is good for the ruling class.

So it's not a nice place to live, but it's not a hellhole. It's very successful, especially economically and militarily. The reason I didn't mention all this in-post was because I was really focusing on the 2004 Constitutional Republic of China, not the 2040 one. :)
 
Almost forgot to comment on this! Awesome idea. Our brains must be on the same frequency, by the way: I'm just now putting the finishing touches to a map that shows a vast empire with a Mandate of Heaven-esque ideology, which even happens to also include Persia and has a POD not that far from yours, except 'in reverse'. In my scenario, it's not a lack of Alexander, but Alexander living 23 years longer than in OTL. (I'll post it later. Let's contrast and compare! :cool: )

Anyway, while my naming conventions fit the theme of "Alexander's empire lasts for a thousand years and language gets kind of weird", I think I can help with Persian names for various satrapies:

Ionia = Yauna

Caria = Karya and Karka are both given in various sources

Lydia = Sparda

Phrygia = Tayaiy Drayahya (one souce mentioned this; can't verify)

Cappadocia = Katpatuka

Cilicia = Kilikya and Hilakku are both given in various sources

Armenia = Armini(y)a

Assyria = Ashora (or Ashura; this varies from source to source)

Babylonia = Babirush(a)

Colchis = Kolkha

Zigiia = no idea, but should be 'Zyx' in Greek (it's the region's actual historical name)

Saka = Saka Paradraya

Alania = Alanya, I'd suspect

Albania = Ardhan

[a whole lot outside Persia; no sensible guesses for those, I'm afraid]

Shirvan = Shathrapan (a more archaic version of the same word)

East and West Media = East and West Mada

Susiana = Uvja / Uvya / Uviya / Uja / Uya have all been suggested

Hyrcania = Varkana

Daikos = ???

Jul = ???

Persia = Parsa

Parthia = Parthava

Dahae = Daha

Turan = same, actually

Kema = ???

Karmania = Karman(y)a

Sagartia = Asagartiya

Aria = Haraiva

Chorasmia = Uvarazmiya

Gedro-Sattagidya = based on Gedrosia [= Maka] and Sattagidya [= Thatagush(a)], so some merging of those names? Makthagusha, perhaps?

Drangiana = Zranga

Arachosia = Harauvatish(a)

Bactia = should be 'Bactria', but in Old Persian Bakhtrish / Baxtrish

Hindush-Gandara = same

Ferghana = Farghana

Sogdia = Soguda

Massagetae = Saka Tigraxauda

[Can't really help you with the ones after that, I'm afraid]
''

Interesting. Does the Hellenic cult usurp Zoroastrianism or does it survive in someway?
 
Nice! Where does Iraq get its name from?

Thanks!

Asorestan was actually the Sassanid name for the satrapy that controlled lower Iraq. It's a name derived from 'Assyria'.


Glorious, but Persia must rule the left side of the Zagros!


Asorestan? That was the Middle Persian name for Assyria.

Yeah, this isn't really (sadly) a Persiawank. We need more Persiawank in our lives.


It is difficult for me to describe how much I love this

Thank you! I really appreciate you saying that :)
 

Skallagrim

Banned
And here, finally, is that map I mentioned:

oikomenem_preview.png


The POD is that Alexander the Great [1] doesn't die in 323 BC. Or actually it's that Hephaistion doesn't die in 324 BC, which prevents Alexander's dramatic downward spiral. Alexander lives another 23 years, dying in 300 BC of disease and leaving his empire to his adult son. Obviously, what we see here isn't what Alexander managed to conquer. This map shows us the situation in (what we would call) 640 AD... nearly a thousand years after the POD. Over the centuries, the Oikomenem [2] has dwindled at times, grown at others, faced crises and changes, battled secession and absorbed new regions. At one point, halfway through its life-time, it fell apart into warring states for a brief period of intense civil war / succession struggle.

It has survived all these things. It has evolved. As its founder intended, this great empire has witnessed the merging cultures and traditions. philosophies from East and West have been joined to each other. The old cults have been displaced or absorbed by the imperial cult of the Light Eternal, which preaches that all deities are mere avatars of a universal divinity. The chief mortal agent of the Light in the physical world is the Vanaksis. [3] The central position of the Chyselephantine Throne and its occupant in religious matters has in many ways been a glue that has kept the Oikomenem together in spirit, even when it was divided in practice. Since the Conquest, there has not been a time when a scion of the Argead dynasty was not at the head of this empire. The royal Pharram [4] is the very legitimacy of all political and religious matters.

Not that we must assume matters have remained unchanged! Far from it: the wild interaction of countless peoples within a vast - and usually peaceful - domain has led to immense leaps in science and technology. The central government was interested in promoting cultural cross-pollination from the outset, and also invested heavily in good infrastructure and general safety for the populace. Alekshandros IV began funding philosophical schools, which gradually evolved into academic centres of learning and scientific schools. Over nine centuries after the Conquest, the tech level of this world is quite similar to what we saw in OTL 1900. Needless to say, some fields have advanced more quickly, while others lag behind, thus yielding a bit of schizo tech. Some things are at a level we saw in 1870, while others approach the advancements of the OTL 1920s. (Nevertheless, considering that it's 'only' the equivalent of 640 AD, we may conclude that this would has advanced quite rapidly.)

Of course, nothing lasts forever. As the millennium approaches, a sense of fatalism grips the Oikomenem. For centuries, people have believed in the creed of "a thousand sunlit years". Now, those thousand years are nearly over. The Oikomenem hasn't faced an existential thread for over two hundred years. Skirmishes with the Kimmerians [5] over Tourika have ended in a negotiated armistice. The armies are becoming more of a bureaucracy than a real fighting force, and conspiracies thrive at court. Enemies abroad keep eager watch, hungry for a chance to tear away parts of the Oikomenem and thus enlarge their own fiefs. The Vanaksis, Philaleksos Argeades - the fourth of that name - is aged and of ill health. He barely governs, and it is whispered that his ambitious concubine Demetria wields all the real power. She has placed her own sons from her first marriage in positions of great power. The heir to the thone, the Megaradis of Vharata, is estranged from his father and resides in distant Palipoutra. When Philaleksos dies, the succession will be thrown into greater ambiguity than has been seen in the past five centuries.

Even in the halls of imperial power, overlooking the Neilos River in royal Aiguptos, the dry wind carries a cool current. Summer is ending. The breath of coming winter in the air.

---

[1] Or as they know him in this ATL: Alekshandros Kataktis. (That is: 'Alekshandros the Conqueror'.)

[2] A word derived from 'oikoumene'.

[3] This title was derived from '(v)anax', an archaic Greek term for 'high king'. It's used in the Iliad, and Homer-fanboy Alexander eventually adopted it as his title. The intended implication is that he is sovereign of the entire world, and king over all other kings.

[4] Literally 'glory', but the world could be translated as 'authority' (in a political context) or 'aura' (in a spiritual context). The concept is comparable to the Mandate of Heaven.

[5] Being of a romanticist bent, Alexander used the Homeric term for the region - "Kimmeria" - during his brief campaign against the Scythians. This exonym stuck, and the empire that later arose in the region even refers to itself by the derived name Kihmerriyar.


---
---


Some more general notes: this is for a long-term project I've been working on for a long time. A Thousand Sunlit Years is meant to be a timeline based on the above ideas, describing the thousand-year history of the Oikomenem, from its inception to its ending. I have no worries about kind of spoiling the ending here, because that's meant to be known from the start. It's all about exploring the concept of a 'China-like' culture arising in Western Eurasia, with its own analogue of the Mandate of Heaven. I'm basing this on a number of theses that I want to illustrate by way of the TL, such as:

- A vast multi-cultural empire that explicitly aims at being cosmopolitan will aid the development of knowledge, science and technology simply by virtue of existing;

- The presence of such an empire will force potential rivals to consolidate ("empire begets empire"), which will lead to a rivalry of powerful states;

- No empire lasts forever, and success is ironically the root of decline (since only challenges keep a culture vital and dynamic).

The above hopefully explains why the map shows several large empires, and why I predict such a high tech level. All the surrounding states have extensive backstories as well, but I'd like to keep some mystery intact. ;)
 
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