CaliGuy
Banned
All of this seems about right.
However, I also think that a coalition of Britain, France, and Russia would have a very difficult time effectively fighting against a Germany which is victorious in World War I.
Germany wins WW1 loses WW2 what are the peace terms
- Thread starter GDIS Pathe
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However, I also think that a coalition of Britain, France, and Russia would have a very difficult time effectively fighting against a Germany which is victorious in World War I.
Surely. Leadership is smarter and more competent and there is good conditions for Jews so Einstein is probably building nuclear bomb for Germans instead Americans. Germans have there generally more faith towards such weapon when it not be just "Jew science".
CaliGuy
Banned
Agreed. Also, there is the fact that, if Germany is smart and treats Poles and Ukrainians well, it would be able to count on Polish and Ukrainian manpower to help it in its fight against Britain, France, and Russia.
Plus, this is not to mention the fact that, after such a long war, one or more of these countries (Britain, France, and Russia) might not have the appetite for a rematch even if they strongly dislike Germany and German domination of Europe.
BooNZ
Banned
In context, my comment was in response to the suggestion Britain was incapable of losing either world war - not the rationale for US entry.
RousseauX
Donor
Russia remains a great power even without Ukraine
This wasn't an issue by the 40s: German-Americans overwhelmingly assimilated by this point
Yes, Russia would be still great power but with Ukraine Russia lost much of fertile land and industrial capacity. And it would has much weaker strategic position in East Europe and Black Sea.
The Ukraine held 20% of the population of the Russian Empire and much of it's industry, including vital natural resource deposits, like iron and coal, and the most fertile lands in all of Europe.
I'm extremely doubtful. Much like modern Russia is merely a secondary power with nukes, this Russia would suffer a similar fate.
RousseauX
Donor
Russia has 130 million people in 1914 vs Germany's 65 or so, you Russia can lose lots of land and population and still come out a great power as long as it industrializes: maybe not a USSR level supowerpower but still a great power
Russia was industrializing in the 1900s, it would have being pretty scary how strong russia would have being without WWI
Without the Ukrainian coal, steel and grain, any Russian attempts at further industrialization would be severely weakened.
This doesn't even mention the fact that without the Ukraine and the rest of the territory which it lost to the Central Powers in this map, Russia has roughly the same population as Germany.
RousseauX
Donor
Russia has plenty of places to get raw material from other than ukraine because the country is huge
How? Do those territory contain like 60 million people?
And how much of it can they immediately access? Regions like the Urals only became viable during Stalinist industrialization. And that level of industrialization couldn't possibly take place in CP victory Russia, because the country is poor, indebted and has to pay war reparations.
From the 1897 census
Adds up to about 50 million people lost.
RousseauX
Donor
Russia's 1914 population was 166 million so it's still like 116 million (or maybe 110 something once you take into account growth from 1897 to 1914 in those territories) vs 65 in Germany after they lose territory
RousseauX
Donor
Oh and demographically Russia probably had a higher fertility rate than Germany in 1914 because Russia was still overwhelmingly a peasant country and peasants had higher fertility rates than urban working class: even after losing territories and the Russian civil war and Stalin The USSR had 168 million people in 1939
Well, let's see, (I'll check in Populstat and tacitus.nu):
1914:
Ukraine - 34 million
Caucasus - 12.7 million
Bessarabia - 2.7 million
Baltics - 5 million
Belarus - 9.5 million
Poland - 13 million
Finland - 3 million
Adds up to about 80 million people lost (well, 79.9).
Even if Russia is a dozen or so million people more populous, their nation is poor, has just lost their main reserve of coal and iron and much of it's industry, and is too indebted and ravaged to be able to successfully industrialize to reach even half of Germany's strength.
For France perhaps enforced balkanisation. Probably independent Britanny and Occitania.
Russia is bit harder. Finland surely gains Kola and Russian Karelia.
But I doubt that there will be second round on CP victory TL when Germany not allow France and Russia becoming too strong and at least French hardly are willingful to new war when they have lost twice during 50 years.
Russia is bit harder. Finland surely gains Kola and Russian Karelia.
But I doubt that there will be second round on CP victory TL when Germany not allow France and Russia becoming too strong and at least French hardly are willingful to new war when they have lost twice during 50 years.
Not taking in consideration how this happen the peace treaty will be more or less:
France
1) Alsace-Lorraine
2) an enlargerd Saarland
3) luxemburg
4)Wallonia
5) some odd and bits around the border (like Kehl)
6)Rhineland demilitarizated
7) return of the colonies if lost during the war
Italy
1) In practice what promised by the Treaty of London in 1915 (with the border of the litoral including the part of Carniola obtained with the Treaty of Rapallo) plus Fiume and Tarvisio
2) Protectorate over Albania (including Kosovo probably) and Montenegro (a little enlarged)
3) enlargement of the colonial empire (more or less the same territory received post-wwi)
Russia
1) Basically OTL post-WW2 border plus Poland
2) reabsorbing of Georgia
3)border back at the pr-ww1 status
4)carving the OTL planned Lazistan SSR
Greece
1) OTL Treaty of Sevres (Turkey) and Treaty of Neuilly-sur-Seine (Bulgaria)
2) possible Cyprus (or part of it) and Dodecanese (or part of it) to encourage Athens to become part of the entente
United Kingdom:
1) OTL colonial aquisition
2) OTL gain over the Ottoman Empire
3) part of Belgian Congo (probably Katanga)
Serbia (OTL Treaty of London and Neuilly-sur-Seine) and Romania (OTL Treaty of Trianon) as a mean to weaken Hungary; formation of the nation of Croatia (with Slovenia) and Czechoslovakia. Spain if actively allied with Germany can see the Balearic Island taken and divided between Italy and France, the French can also took the Basque Region and part of Catalonia; the spanish colonial empire will be divided between UK and France.
Denmark rewarded as OTL as a mean to punish Germany.
General
1) Heavy reparation on par of OTL WW1
2) Union between Austria and Germany forbidden
3) Military limitation on par of OTL post-WW1
4) division of the German colonial empire between the victorios power (OTL division plus the division of Belgium congo and the bit part given to Portugal and belgium at Versailles)
5) the break-up of the A-H and Ottoman Empire
France
1) Alsace-Lorraine
2) an enlargerd Saarland
3) luxemburg
4)Wallonia
5) some odd and bits around the border (like Kehl)
6)Rhineland demilitarizated
7) return of the colonies if lost during the war
Italy
1) In practice what promised by the Treaty of London in 1915 (with the border of the litoral including the part of Carniola obtained with the Treaty of Rapallo) plus Fiume and Tarvisio
2) Protectorate over Albania (including Kosovo probably) and Montenegro (a little enlarged)
3) enlargement of the colonial empire (more or less the same territory received post-wwi)
Russia
1) Basically OTL post-WW2 border plus Poland
2) reabsorbing of Georgia
3)border back at the pr-ww1 status
4)carving the OTL planned Lazistan SSR
Greece
1) OTL Treaty of Sevres (Turkey) and Treaty of Neuilly-sur-Seine (Bulgaria)
2) possible Cyprus (or part of it) and Dodecanese (or part of it) to encourage Athens to become part of the entente
United Kingdom:
1) OTL colonial aquisition
2) OTL gain over the Ottoman Empire
3) part of Belgian Congo (probably Katanga)
Serbia (OTL Treaty of London and Neuilly-sur-Seine) and Romania (OTL Treaty of Trianon) as a mean to weaken Hungary; formation of the nation of Croatia (with Slovenia) and Czechoslovakia. Spain if actively allied with Germany can see the Balearic Island taken and divided between Italy and France, the French can also took the Basque Region and part of Catalonia; the spanish colonial empire will be divided between UK and France.
Denmark rewarded as OTL as a mean to punish Germany.
General
1) Heavy reparation on par of OTL WW1
2) Union between Austria and Germany forbidden
3) Military limitation on par of OTL post-WW1
4) division of the German colonial empire between the victorios power (OTL division plus the division of Belgium congo and the bit part given to Portugal and belgium at Versailles)
5) the break-up of the A-H and Ottoman Empire
Regarding on how this happen? Well, the only thing that come in my minds is that after having carving up that kind of Empire seen in the map (except austrian Libya
), Germany is overxtended and need to put down in the following years Polish and Ukranian rebellion (as the massive political and economic control Germany get there, independence is only nominal) and some period of political instability due to the fight between Junkers and socialist.
At all that one must add the ongoing arab rebellion and Serbian rebellion plus the need to support the A-H as while the war had prop up the monarchy, the hapsburg enstablishment failed to effectively reform the nation.
The German and co. army suffered during the economic crisis of the early 30's...as everyone else, but the Entente put their economies almost in a death spiral and in command mode to rearm quicker and better than the Germans; more importantly the great victory in the past war fixed the German army and navy in the past glory and the vibrant officers of yesterday are now a sclerotic group of tired old men, while on the other side, men like De Gaulle, Montgomery, Zukov,Messe and Balbo forge the armies of tomorrow.
), Germany is overxtended and need to put down in the following years Polish and Ukranian rebellion (as the massive political and economic control Germany get there, independence is only nominal) and some period of political instability due to the fight between Junkers and socialist.At all that one must add the ongoing arab rebellion and Serbian rebellion plus the need to support the A-H as while the war had prop up the monarchy, the hapsburg enstablishment failed to effectively reform the nation.
The German and co. army suffered during the economic crisis of the early 30's...as everyone else, but the Entente put their economies almost in a death spiral and in command mode to rearm quicker and better than the Germans; more importantly the great victory in the past war fixed the German army and navy in the past glory and the vibrant officers of yesterday are now a sclerotic group of tired old men, while on the other side, men like De Gaulle, Montgomery, Zukov,Messe and Balbo forge the armies of tomorrow.