As I'm working on a story that involves the Cold War still continuing into the 21st century, I need to know about some projects that got cancelled by the OTL end of the Cold War. Already I know of two projects that got canned, namely the G11 Caseless Assault Rifle something and the A-12 Avenger II stealth attack aircraft, but I'm sure there's plenty that I missed that can be called out on this thread; so can anyone can give some names of the cancelled projects in question?
Military Projects Cancelled by the End of the Cold War
- Thread starter KuboCaskett
- Start date
The Seawolf class SSN quiet big 8 torpedo tubes and expensive as fuck 21 planned got canned to 3 when the cold war ended their tubes are also bigger than the norm at 660mm for a new type of torpedo that also got canned by its end IIRC. Also, the Ulyvanosk supercarrier which was cancelled due to the end of the cold war meant to be the Soviet Navies first real supercarrier
Interesting, though I'm reminded of the Sea Shadow stealth boat thing, which might be seeing service probably longer than OTL.
Any more takers?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Well there is Sea Lance, basically a supersonic version of ASROC, for the US. US acquisition of the Air Defense Anti Tank system from Canada got canned. M8 Armored gun system to replace the M551 Sheridan. MGM-134 Midgetman as a mobile ICBM, and LGM-118 was highly restricted in purchasing.
Follow on models of the B1, F117, & possibly the B52 (?). The US Navy had some bloated aircraft projects killed as the need evaporated.
There's also the RAH-66 commanche. Cancelled in 2004 because it was expensive but conceived in the Cold War to replace the Apache.
A LOT of the programs mentioned (the A-12 & AH-66 especially) were victims of their contractor's greed or incompetence (or both). Both aircraft reached stupid expensive before there was even an airframe built, with the promise of even worse to follow. The A-12 program made the F-35 gestation seem reasonable, with tons of money poured into a bottomess pit that never even prodiced a working prototype. The Comanche, which was supposed to SUPPORT the AH-64 was pricing out at better than double the cost of the AH-64A when it was cancelled in 2004, well before production began. The projected 2004 cost is STILL higher than the AH-64 Longbows coming off the assembly line today.
Blame cost plus contracts. They encourage a company to over-promise, knowing that they can get all the extra funding the need down the line (See: F-35; also seen LCS).
Blame cost plus contracts. They encourage a company to over-promise, knowing that they can get all the extra funding the need down the line (See: F-35; also seen LCS).
Given what you said, is there like at least ONE project that doesn't require being more expensive than necessary? Stuff like that makes me wonder why bother building new stuff that are expensive and prone to failure, we might as well be using s--t from WWII.
Pretty much everything the government buys is over-priced, nature of the beast, especially with all the exacting specifications that the government writes into contracts for everything from airplane to zoo cages.
The difference between an overly costly program and a disaster is fairly easy to see.
The B-2 is ungodly expensive, but it works like it is supposed to, perform the mission and bring the crew home in one piece (to date, which is why the new Manned Bomber is being built, defensive tech will catch up to the B-2, hopefully after the U.S. has a replacement). The Seawolf is a classic victim of the end of the Cold War. Unquestionably the best SSN ever built to that date (and arguably better in the managing the deep blue and under ice than the first flight Virginia class SSN that succeeded it), it ended after three hulls (actually two, since the Carter is a modified specialized intel gathering platform) because the mission dried up (or so we thought at the time)
The LCS (Littoral Combat Ship) is ungodly expensive, but is so screwed up that the Navy is literally unwilling to subject it to combat shock testing, while the spectacular new weapon systems the ship was supposed to carry were all cancelled or found to be no significant improvement over other systems. As a result the USN is now stuck with TWO classes of corvettes that cost damned near as much as a DDG (although the contractors state the cost will come down, at best the three of the LCS will cost as much as a Burke, and be incapable of performing 1/10 of that ship's missions) that the CNO states will not be sent into "anti-access areas" in groups of less than three ships and will always be covered by a DDG. Yes, the CNO stated at the corvette/light frigates will be ESCORTED by a DDG. Might as well call the LCS the Alaska II class. At least in 1945 they were smart enough to stop after the third one.
Nick P
Donor
There were many upgrade projects that got dropped post 1991 that might have gone on to better things.
F-14D Tomcat might have been provided to the whole fleet and not just the 37 aircraft that actually got built.
A-6F and A-6G Intruder projects instead of the A-12 program.
HTSV/HIMAG air portable tanks http://tanknutdave.com/the-american-hstvl-tank/ There are a lot of projects on here I've not heard of! Worth a good read.
On the European side we might have seen the British Army buy into the Eurocopter Tiger or the A129 Mangusta attack helicopter. There was a long term aim to replace all the Sea King, Puma and Lynx with the new Merlin 'battlefield taxi'. Canada was also looking for a major buy of the Merlin.
The NH90 project might have gone a lot further too.
F-14D Tomcat might have been provided to the whole fleet and not just the 37 aircraft that actually got built.
A-6F and A-6G Intruder projects instead of the A-12 program.
HTSV/HIMAG air portable tanks http://tanknutdave.com/the-american-hstvl-tank/ There are a lot of projects on here I've not heard of! Worth a good read.
On the European side we might have seen the British Army buy into the Eurocopter Tiger or the A129 Mangusta attack helicopter. There was a long term aim to replace all the Sea King, Puma and Lynx with the new Merlin 'battlefield taxi'. Canada was also looking for a major buy of the Merlin.
The NH90 project might have gone a lot further too.
The LGM-118's decommissioning and scrapping was prompted by the end of the Cold War. If tensions remained up, you'd probably see more of them being stuck in Minuteman silo's once they got the remaining bugs worked out.
Small arms.
The MP-11 and MG-11 caseless ammunition weapons. The former was a PDW firing a shortened 4.7mm round, the latter a LSW complement to the G-11.
WA-2000 sniper rifle and WSG2000 anti-materiel rifle.
The CAWS and ACR contenders.
The BRG-15 and ASP heavy machine gun replacements.
The Steyr AMR.
The MP-11 and MG-11 caseless ammunition weapons. The former was a PDW firing a shortened 4.7mm round, the latter a LSW complement to the G-11.
WA-2000 sniper rifle and WSG2000 anti-materiel rifle.
The CAWS and ACR contenders.
The BRG-15 and ASP heavy machine gun replacements.
The Steyr AMR.
Also the Super Tomcat 21. The F-14D was the best fleet defense fighter ever built; to this day, arguably the best bomber interceptor ever to take wing. Whole idea of the Tomcat was to keep some jackass from punching a hole in a $10B assest, but Cheney decided that an aircraft with half the loiter, 30% slower (which, for an interceptor, is sorta important), shorter range and, remarkably, slower AAM was just fine.
Still not quite sure if the demise of the Super Tom or the S-3 Viking was the most dangerous decision regarding NAVAIR since McNamara tried to foist the Aardvark off on the fleet.
About the only one I know of that hasn't been mentioned is the Boeing 747-CMCA Cruise Missile Carrier aircraft. It was just as it says on the tin, a Boeing 747 carrying 72 AGM-86 CALCMs (the conventional version, effectively an air-launched Tomahawk with larger warhead). The B-52 can carry 'only' 20 such missiles.
The Super Tomcat 21 was supposed to come equipped with an advanced long range AAM, the AIM-152 AAAM (Advanced Air-to-Air Missile) which was essentially a follow-on to the AIM-54 Phoenix. It was to the Phoenix as AMRAAM was to Sparrow.
Lots of other AAMs got developed and cancelled, but the performance of the later AIM-9s and the AIM-120 AMRAAM are good enough that the USAF/USN probably did not lose too much in taking the path that it did. Similarly, AGMs and smart munitions were well developed.
The Super Tomcat 21 was supposed to come equipped with an advanced long range AAM, the AIM-152 AAAM (Advanced Air-to-Air Missile) which was essentially a follow-on to the AIM-54 Phoenix. It was to the Phoenix as AMRAAM was to Sparrow.
Lots of other AAMs got developed and cancelled, but the performance of the later AIM-9s and the AIM-120 AMRAAM are good enough that the USAF/USN probably did not lose too much in taking the path that it did. Similarly, AGMs and smart munitions were well developed.
What of the Soviet/Russian side? A continuing Cold War in general would mean that the USSR might avoid the economic doldrums that hampered its military capabilities in OTL 90's.
Driftless
Donor
That machine bears a passing resemblance in layout to my favorite alternate history AFV: The T-92 Light Tank from the 1950's
I like that tank design too, though my favorite one from that decade would be the Chrysler TV-8 Amphibious Combat Tank, too bad no one bothered to make it practical. But of course I didn't start this thread to talk about Cold War projects in the past but rather ones that are affected by the end of the Cold War.That machine bears a passing resemblance in layout to my favorite alternate history AFV: The T-92 Light Tank from the 1950's
The T-95 main battle tank or something similar might be developed and enter service. Or the Object 187 (an experimental tank), although that one is also shrouded in secrecy. An advanced tank such as these would probably replace the T-80 and T-64, while the T-90 would replace the T-72 (which it was derived from).
The BTR-90 armored personnel carrier might actually enter service with the Soviet Armed Forces if they can afford to field it.
The Mikoyan 1.44 and Sukhoi Su-47 might be developed into operational fighter jets, although I'm not sure how they would compare performance-wise with the F-22 Raptor (probably more maneuverable than the F-22, but inferior when it comes to electronics). Something like the PAK FA might still be developed to remain on par with American 5th generation fighters.
The Sukhoi T-60S would replace the Tu-22M Backfire bomber. There are a number of different designs and artwork of the supposed aircraft floating around on the web, so I'm not sure what the actual plane would have looked like.
The Ilyushin Il-106 would replace the Il-76 Candid as the primary heavy transport aircraft.
The Kamov Ka-40 would replace the Ka-27 Helix as the anti-submarine helicopter of the Soviet Navy.
The Mil Mi-38 would replace the Mi-8 and Mi-17 transport helicopters.
The Ulyanovsk-class aircraft carrier would be completed and enter service, assuming this alternate USSR is wealthy enough to afford supercarriers.
The Kherson-class amphibious assault ship would probably be developed.
Various OTL military vehicles such as the T-90 tank, BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicle, 2S19 Msta self-propelled howitzer, Su-30 Flanker fighter, Su-34 Fullback fighter-bomber, Mi-28 Havoc and Ka-50/52 Hokum attack helicopters, Slava-class cruiser, and Akula-class attack submarine would be procured in greater numbers.
As for small arms, I don't think there would be much difference from OTL post-Soviet Russia. The AK-74 would probably remain the service rifle of the Soviet Armed Forces, although it could get replaced in the 2000s or 2010s by something like the AK-12.
For what it's worth, I'm working on my own AH timeline where the Soviet Union avoids collapse and survives into the present era. Hopefully our stories won't be too similar.
There was also the Sukhoi S-37 and Mikoyan Project 33
and the Mikoyan Project 33
More stuff from secret projects, this time it's the abortive Sukhoi S-37.
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Triton said:
and the Mikoyan Project 33
“Article 33”, “Project 33”, “Product 33”, or “Project R-33”
In the late 1970ies, the Mikoyan OKB design bureau began working on a very light “strike fighter” that was intended to be a direct competitor to the F-16 Fighting Falcon. This new Mikoyan design, designated Izdeliye 33 (Izd 33) (and variously translated as “Article 33”, “Project 33”, “Product 33”, or “Project R-33”), was of conventional layout and similar in appearance to the F-16, with a fixed geometry, chin-mounted air intake and a blended wing and body layout and pronounced leading edge root extensions (LERX).
The aircraft was originally powered by a single Klimov RD-33 afterburning turbofan engine – the same engine used by the twin-engined MiG-29. Overall, the Izdeliye 33 was less complex and capable than the MiG-29, but also much cheaper in acquisition and operation.
In due course the aircraft received the official designation MiG-33SE ("S" for, "seriynyy" = serial and "E" for "eksportnyy" = export).
These production aircraft differed in several details from the Izdeliye 33, the most obvious change were enlarged elevator surfaces and bulges on the flanks which had become necessary in roder to fit bigger low pressure tires to the main landing gear for operations on rough airstrips.
Compared with the prototypes, the operational MiG-33 was powered by a Tumansky R-25-300 turbojet, rated at 55 kN (12,000 lbf) dry military power, 68.5 kN (15,400 lbf) with afterburner and 96.8 kN (21,800 lbf) for 3 minutes with boosted afterburner (CSR mode, altitude < 4,000 metres (13,000 ft)). The air intake received an adjustable ramp and the radome became smaller.
The first airframes left the Sokol production plant at Nizhny Novgorod in 1987. When the aircraft became known to the public it received the ACSS code name “Foghorn” in the West.
Instead of the MiG-29's state-of-the-art Phazotron RLPK-29 radar fire control system, a less sophisticated RLPK-29E targeting system, based on the N019EA "Rubin" radar, was fitted. As a secondary sensor, a modified S-31E optoelectronic targeting/navigation system and different IFF transponders were fitted.
This avionics suite still featured modes for look-down/shoot-down and close-in fighting. With this equipment, the MiG-33SE was able to carry the new and very effective R-73 (NATO: AA-11 "Archer") short-range air-to-air missile, as well as the R-27 (AA-10 "Alamo") mid-range AAM with IR and radar homing. A SPO-15L "Beryoza" ("Birch") radar warning receiver was carried, too, along with chaff/flare dispensers.
The new type quickly found buyers: first orders came, among others, from Algeria, Angola, Eritrea, North Korea and Vietnam, and deliveries started in early 1988. In 1989 the MiG-33SE was also offered to India for license production (replacing the country’s large MiG-21 fleet), but the country wanted a more potent aircraft and eventually became one of the first MiG-29 export customers.
Beyond its operational service, the MiG-33SE left other footprints in Asia, too. Following the cancellation of U.S. and European companies’ participation in the development of the Westernized Chengdu J-7 variant known as the “Super-7”, China launched a program in 1991 to develop an indigenous evolution of this MiG-21-based design, which it designated the FC-1 (“Fighter China 1”).
To expedite its development, officials of the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) or the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) – perhaps both – approached Mikoyan for technical support.
In 1998, CATIC purchased Izdeliye 33 design and test information from the Mikoyan design bureau, along with other research and development assistance. These designs were used for the development of JF-17 / FC-1 by Pakistan and China, which entered production in 2007.