Alternate AFVs for the '70s

[Musketeer513]

It was late in '68 and engineers working on the MBT-70 project noted the many problems they encounter. One engineer spoke up with his radical ideas for a fix. The driver would be located in the hull in a supine position. The hull would need to be enlarged but not greatly their was enough space for more air filters and a 1,500-hp engine. The troublesome 20mm gun was replaced with the long used M2HB machine gun. The Shillelagh would eventually be installed but for now th wee British L11 120mm gun would be used, the most powerful anti-tank gun in the West. In the future the Germans could install a smooth bore gun. A benefit of this was that America, Britain and Germany would all use the 120 gun. The space the driver previously used by the driver was now used by a loader. It was agreed to give this version a try while work continued on the primary variant. In '69 the new variant had passed trials and went into production as the M70 Eisenhower. The name to honor the recently deceased former President who commanded the Allied troops in Europe.

At the same time the Chieftain was adopted and co-produced by the Israelis. The British Foreign Office tried to cancel the agreement but failed. The Israeli version used the same engine that the Israelis used as their standard, the AVDS-1790-2 and the M2HB as it's turret mounted anti-aircraft gun. Production of the L11 gun also now adopted by America and Germany for the Eisenhower exceeded the production of Chieftains, the Israelis decided to rearm vehicles with the new gun. One such vehicle, the M111 a rearmed M110, was used as a mobile anti-tank gun.

 

[Yes]

I am interested in your theories and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. That's what should've happened in each of those cases (not least bc it's good for the British tank business, spreading the L11 around.) only part im not sure about is the "Eisenhower." An IFV yes but tanks were customarily named for cavalry or armor officers -- it's a shame a name as senior as Phil Sheridan's had, relatively speaking, been wasted on an airdroppable light tank. Despite the fact he was still in uniform it might have been an Abrams anyway: he was reckoned the best battalion- and brigade-level US tank commander of the war and had championed a new generation of MBT being built. But I look forward to seeing where this goes

ETA: love the quality of the sketches too. Hopefully A1 orA2 gets some Chobham/Dorchester panels on the main glacis and maybe a little ERA in the cracks?

 

[Musketeer513]

I am interested in your theories and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. That's what should've happened in each of those cases (not least bc it's good for the British tank business, spreading the L11 around.) only part im not sure about is the "Eisenhower." An IFV yes but tanks were customarily named for cavalry or armor officers -- it's a shame a name as senior as Phil Sheridan's had, relatively speaking, been wasted on an airdroppable light tank. Despite the fact he was still in uniform it might have been an Abrams anyway: he was reckoned the best battalion- and brigade-level US tank commander of the war and had championed a new generation of MBT being built. But I look forward to seeing where this goes

ETA: love the quality of the sketches too. Hopefully A1 orA2 gets some Chobham/Dorchester panels on the main glacis and maybe a little ERA in the cracks?

Thanks, I will try to improve things as I go. As for names; Stuart was a cavalry officer but Grant, Lee and Sherman were not. Jackson I'm not sure about, Pershing was commander big time but Patton was armor. Other people did the line drawing, I'm still working on making mine up to their level.

 

[Musketeer513]

With the successful introduction of the Eisenhower into American and German service many wondered about the future of the Shillelagh. Engineers continued to work on fixing the problems with the ammunition. After successful trials of a Sheridan with a 76mm gun, a 105mm gun was tried. The gun was too powerful for the chassis, rocking the tank when fired to the side but the increase in firepower lead to the adoption as the M551A2 Sheridan. With the launch of the Easter Offense in Vietnam, the up-gunned Sheridan was rushed to Vietnam. With the fighting in Vietnam the M41 Walker Bulldog was also up-gunned and sent to re-supply the ARVN forces. Besides the 90mm gun, these Walker Bulldogs were re-engined with a AV-81T diesel engine and a new transmission. The M41A4 Walker Bulldog was welcomed eagerly by the ARVN forces. The Nordic nations in NATO requested the new Walker Bulldog. There was a quite surprise when the Dutch requested a few. The last request the Dutch asked for surprised the American Army, when it was seconded by the Danes and Norse, the US complied. Who could imagine the need or want for an anti-tank derivative of the M41? Later in the year the first M51 Gun Motor Carriage was delivered.

 

[marathag]

only part im not sure about is the "Eisenhower." An IFV yes but tanks were customarily named for cavalry or armor officers

Ike was well known with the other officers at Ft. Meade (like Patton and Chaffee) as part of the Tank Corps, the Experimental Motorized Force based there, plus his role in the Transcontinental Motor Convoy

 

[TonyA]

Eisenhower, hmmmm, pity no tank named for him. Now, had they ever considered naming typewriters, he'd been 1st in line...

 

[Musketeer513]

Another excellent line drawing from @Claymore .

 

[Musketeer513]

And another one he did.

 

[Driftless]

@Claymore is the champ for alternate AFV line drawings.

I like the the line of thought here.

 

[KuboCaskett]

Funny thing a thread for alternate AFV's to come in the 1970's is made just as I have a WWIII in the 1970's planned in my TL; I guess this thread might help.

 

[Musketeer513]

Funny thing a thread for alternate AFV's to come in the 1970's is made just as I have a WWIII in the 1970's planned in my TL; I guess this thread might help.

 

[Musketeer513]

Funny thing a thread for alternate AFV's to come in the 1970's is made just as I have a WWIII in the 1970's planned in my TL; I guess this thread might help.

Go to my thread about the Type 60 Heavy Tank. It's a Chinese reverse-engineered IS-2. You will find a 70s update with a wicked 120mm gun.

 

[Musketeer513]

Funny thing a thread for alternate AFV's to come in the 1970's is made just as I have a WWIII in the 1970's planned in my TL; I guess this thread might help.

Let me know when you start your thread, it might be quite interesting.

 

[Musketeer513]

The M41A4.

 

[Musketeer513]

By October' 73 the Israelis have 200 Chieftains in service. The Mk. 50 Super Shermans have been withdrawn from service to be converted into other vehicles. The Mk. 51 Ishermans are in the second line as a reserve vehicles. Experimentation of several Centurions have been done. Studies are being done to see if the Sho't and Magach can be upgraded with the 120mm gun.

Another great @Claymore line drawing.

In other areas the Australians and Canadians have adopted the Eisenhower into service. The fears of the British Foreign Office have been partially realized. No Arab nation was willing to buy the Chieftain but Iran places an order for more than 500, with recommendation from Israel, South Africa orders 150. With the problems with their Panzer 61 and Panzer 68 the Swiss surprisingly order 150 and more amazingly 150 Strv 103 from Sweden.

 

[Musketeer513]

Just as IOTL, war breaks out in the Middle East in October'73. Surprisingly Israel is marginally weaker than IOTL. ITTL due to the production of Chieftains less M48s and M60s were supplied by the Western Powers. On the Golan Heights the Israelis initially do worse. Ultimately with the Chieftains, the Israelis not only approach Damascus as IOTL, they reach the city and lay siege. The Israeli are not powerful enough to totally cut the city off but defeat every attempt to lift the siege.

In the Sinai, the Egyptians pause briefly after crossing the Suez Canal but resume their advance to the mid-Sinai passes to assist their Syrian allies. It is near these passes that the Israelis initially defeat the Egyptians. Subsequently, the Israelis race to and cross the Canal and laying siege to Suez City and shelling Cairo. The fact that the Israelis were within 40 km of the Capital.

In their time of desperation, the Israelis unveiled vehicles never seen by the public before. All of the vehicles were designed and used in previous conflicts with the Arab Nations but the knowledge of these vehicles was unknown to the world at large. While none were of an advanced technology, they showed what Israel had achieved with designs that originated in the '40s.

 

[Musketeer513]

The Assault Gun Sherman, is an Israeli modified Mk. 50 Super Sherman. It was first used in the Six Day War, the same way the Wehrmacht used their Sturmgeschultz III in WW2. Attached to infantry formations it freed up their tanks for jobs other than infantry support.

The model was done by @Claymore . He did a great job.

 

[Musketeer513]

Among the vehicles that were displayed after the war was a Crusader derivative. Who designed it and when was unknown. British military experts were at a loss to explain it. The main gun was a world war one anti-aircraft gun. Israeli sources claim it was found in '48 and used in the war for Independence.

Another excellent job by @Claymore.

 

[Musketeer513]

It's strange to refer to vehicles as heroes but a hero of the conflict was the, Romah, a vehicle derived from the Centurion. This assault vehicle with a 155mm gun whose development started after the Six Day War. No known vehicle could survive get hit by a 155mm APFSDF even getting hit by a direct 155 HE would be devastating.

Model and backstory from @Claymore.

 

[Musketeer513]

One of the vehicles that surprised the Syrians was the Roetz, an upgrade of the German Panther. 50 Panthers were sold to Israel by France. Needing work, they were placed into storage. After the Six Day War they were refurbished. The engine of the current Leopard was bought from West German, the British 105mm gun would be used to standardize it with current Israeli tanks but the turret was too small. The turret of captured T-54s were used. The resulting tank was a complete surprise in the fighting on the Golan.

Another excellent @Claymore production.