The impact of the Grantville transition on England

[Wolf of Badenoch]

Forgive me if this question is answered elsewhere or if mention of Gville is by convention not to be mentioned but as a fan of the series I'm continuously irritated by the fact that Stuart England is virtually ignored. I can recall only one short story which references Charles I getting his retaliation in first by tracking down his future regicides.

Searches on the site disclose no timelines. Has no one done any work on this trope?

 

[Codae]

First off: we have a separate forum, Alternate History Books & Media, for discussion of published AH works (for instance, the 1632 series). Before 1900 is about realistic divergences from our timeline. I've put in a request to move the thread.

I do recall that one of the novels killed off Queen Henrietta Maria. I think it was The Baltic War.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

There are a couple of Grantville Gazette stories set in England and the full novel 1635: A Parcel of Rogues is all about the impact of Grantville on England.

 

[Wolf of Badenoch]

There are a couple of Grantville Gazette stories set in England and the full novel 1635: A Parcel of Rogues is all about the impact of Grantville on England.

Many thanks to both of you for the helpful comments. I've ordered the book!
My confusion arose because putting ' Grantville' into the search facility produces a nil return - while 1632 is very productive - I obviously need to learn how to search.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

Many thanks to both of you for the helpful comments. I've ordered the book!
My confusion arose because putting ' Grantville' into the search facility produces a nil return - while 1632 is very productive - I obviously need to learn how to search.

As of January 2016:

 

[Clandango]

Unfortunately, once looking up one of the new books I saw a review that told the whole plot to it, or at least the ending. Admittedly it was a part of criticism with them saying 'they expected' what happened or something to that effect. The book involved Cromwell, and we can leave it at that. Though really, the Americans and Germans can't have too much of a direct effect here perhaps. Or at least they are giving it as much focus as the other areas. The Grantville Gazettes and books tend to focus on the USE, for reasonable enough reasons.

 

[Wolf of Badenoch]

I've now read and enjoyed 1635: 'A Parcel of Rogues' and await with interest the outbreak of the English Civil War in 1636. Can't imagine how many butterflies that particular POTD will generate. Many thanks for the steer and the useful graphic. If Clandango thinks that the USE and Grantville isn't going to have much influence in the conflict between Charles Stuart and the 'commonwealth party' then he will enjoy reading the subtle interplay between Cromwell and the Uptimers and the very devious USE Emperor.

 

[Clandango]

I've now read and enjoyed 1635: 'A Parcel of Rogues' and await with interest the outbreak of the English Civil War in 1636. Can't imagine how many butterflies that particular POTD will generate. Many thanks for the steer and the useful graphic. If Clandango thinks that the USE and Grantville isn't going to have much influence in the conflict between Charles Stuart and the 'commonwealth party' then he will enjoy reading the subtle interplay between Cromwell and the Uptimers and the very devious USE Emperor.

Perhaps, though since my most recent reading and rereading over the past years was the Gazettes, I was more thinking of local level stuff, the economy, etc. Given the map someone made of 1732, based upon a closed-door meeting on the future of the series, I expect that there will certainly be some changes. And given how Charles gave the reins to someone who tried to kill him... Yah, the executive branch in England is a bit iffy.

 

[Wolf of Badenoch]

Perhaps, though since my most recent reading and rereading over the past years was the Gazettes, I was more thinking of local level stuff, the economy, etc. Given the map someone made of 1732, based upon a closed-door meeting on the future of the series, I expect that there will certainly be some changes. And given how Charles gave the reins to someone who tried to kill him... Yah, the executive branch in England is a bit iffy.

Hm, yes. Regardless of what happens in the early Civil War, I have a feeling we will see either an independent Scotland (Hurray!) or a Scotland as part of the USE (semi Hurray!)

 

[Michael B]

Hm, yes. Regardless of what happens in the early Civil War, I have a feeling we will see either an independent Scotland (Hurray!) or a Scotland as part of the USE (semi Hurray!)

Not sure that there will be much of a Civil War if Charles continues to get French gold. The gold would of course depend on King Gaston maintaining a Richelieu policy and no guarantees on that. If the gold stops then Charles could go to the Spanish and be screwed or not and be equally screwed. What is in his favour is that he has executed or driven into exile most of Parliament's leaders. Thus, advantage Charles on this TL.

On an independent Scotland, they can still ruin themselves in a Darien Scheme debacle. On joining the USE, I would favour them joining Denmark. The USE is not going to bother with them, not with the wars in the east and France. Denmark though, that King Christian would see the opportunities and already as a base near by. And Admiral and his princess, sorry king's daughter wife could head the embassy.

(There are some characters that I always roots for and Eddie Cantrell is one of them. A bright young man going places.)

 

[Valena]

I wonder where the plotline from Grantville Gazette VI goes. I've read The Anatomy Lesson and The Masque in my marathon reading of AH works involving Prince Rupert as of recent. And the exiled crowd of Parliament's leaders pretty much fancies him as the King/or Prince Regent, since future Charles II is already born by PoD.
Well... it seems that TTL dream of becoming an engineer won't be so clear cut for poor Prince.

 

[Wolf of Badenoch]

On an independent Scotland, they can still ruin themselves in a Darien Scheme debacle.

Given that we are 55 years away from the Darien Scheme IOTL I'd have thought that as a resolution of the English constitutional problem (one way or another) will be achieved long before then. Gustavus Adolphus makes it clear to his agents at the end of 'Band of Rogues' that he wants Scotland as part of the USE - and if that's not possible he wants it to have associated status. I think the suggestion of a Denmark connection is interesting and viable but so would a Norway/Scotland union - and this would allow an early Norway/Sweden disconnect pleasing lots of people. Contrary to Michael B's view, I think the USE does want Scotland as a counterpoint to England (should Cromwell fail) and a USE-facing Scotland in the North and an unsettled Ireland in the West will keep a Stuart England in its place and probably prevent any form of colonial expansion.

 

[Michael B]

Given that we are 55 years away from the Darien Scheme IOTL I'd have thought that as a resolution of the English constitutional problem (one way or another) will be achieved long before then. Gustavus Adolphus makes it clear to his agents at the end of 'Band of Rogues' that he wants Scotland as part of the USE - and if that's not possible he wants it to have associated status

And what is Mike Strearn's view on the matter?

Seriously though, Gustavus Adolphus is pushing his luck here. England is now a French client and if the King of France wants to make an issue of it he can put more (English) troops in faster than USE can Germans.

I think the suggestion of a Denmark connection is interesting and viable but so would a Norway/Scotland union - and this would allow an early Norway/Sweden disconnect pleasing lots of people. Contrary to Michael B's view, I think the USE does want Scotland as a counterpoint to England (should Cromwell fail) and a USE-facing Scotland in the North and an unsettled Ireland in the West will keep a Stuart England in its place and probably prevent any form of colonial expansion.

Apart from having Cromwell, getting sucked into England gains the USE very little strategically.

As for colonial expansion the Charles I government has surrendered that for French gold. One seriously large butterfly of the Ring of Fire is that the British Empire will now never be. With support from its Caribbean holding and Hapsburg Ireland can look forward to independence. England no longer has any serious colonies and is likely to be embroiled in a long drawn out conflict in Scotland. In terms of weight it is on par with the level that it was during the Middle Ages.[/QUOTE]

 

[Indicus]

As of January 2016:

My God. I stopped at 1634: The Baltic War, but I guess I'll try 1636: The Mission to the Mughals (not on this flowchart) largely because I can't resist reading about the Mughal Empire.

 

[Wolf of Badenoch]

And what is Mike Strearn's view on the matter?

Seriously though, Gustavus Adolphus is pushing his luck here. England is now a French client and if the King of France wants to make an issue of it he can put more (English) troops in faster than USE can Germans.


Apart from having Cromwell, getting sucked into England gains the USE very little strategically.

As for colonial expansion the Charles I government has surrendered that for French gold. One seriously large butterfly of the Ring of Fire is that the British Empire will now never be. With support from its Caribbean holding and Hapsburg Ireland can look forward to independence. England no longer has any serious colonies and is likely to be embroiled in a long drawn out conflict in Scotland. In terms of weight it is on par with the level that it was during the Middle Ages.

[/QUOTE]
Mmm, yes. I did mention the negation of English colonial expansion. Stearns appears to be in favour of absorbing or certainly allying to Scotland. Hence, I presume the support for Cromwell.

 

[edgeworthy]

Forgive me if this question is answered elsewhere or if mention of Gville is by convention not to be mentioned but as a fan of the series I'm continuously irritated by the fact that Stuart England is virtually ignored. I can recall only one short story which references Charles I getting his retaliation in first by tracking down his future regicides.

Searches on the site disclose no timelines. Has no one done any work on this trope?

A big part of 1633 occurs in London. The Granville Diplomatic mission is housed/ imprisoned in the Tower of London. Cromwell is introduced, and to be honest in a questionable fashion, Richelieu bribes Charles I into using the Royal Navy to smash the Dutch, and they burn down the Globe Theatre.

(And the gigantic character assassination of William Shakespeare tends to leave a bad taste in your mouth)

 

[Michael B]

they burn down the Globe Theatre.

Lets give credit where it is due. It was Harry Lefferts who was the man who burned it down. And he did not half get an ear bashing for doing so.

(And the gigantic character assassination of William Shakespeare tends to leave a bad taste in your mouth)

Agreed.

 

[AbeLincoln1865]

(And the gigantic character assassination of William Shakespeare tends to leave a bad taste in your mouth)

What exactly happens?

 

[Clandango]

What exactly happens?

The overly brash young men who spray poison gas into Cromwell's face when he is in a dank room with little ventilation call them freaks for boys or men playing the parts of women, despite it being the law. So they set up firebombs to go off at it in the crowded, timber built area where actors, brewers, tanners, and poor people lived and worked. And they laughed, while the woman with them reacted in horror. They laughed at the arson. Not the horror. They didn't seem to care about that. I think it was less character assassination by the writers so much as showing the how infantile those up-timers were.

Reminds me of Horrible History a bit, where they both have sketches blaming Cromwell for banning sports, Christmas services, plays, etc (and having their rat him a hypocrtic for enjoying music) while also showing, in different seasons and episodes, showing sketches of how the sports involved maiming each other, the Chrismtas traditions at the time had pagan origins (and that this way people could stay at home with family on Christmas rather than going out in the dead of winter), plays were staffed by men and filled with drunks and Royal censors... Basically, Cromwell would be blamed for lots that either was done by the Long Parliment or was done by himself, but also by Kings who didn't like rioting and mass maiming.

But yah, I feel that the book in which that comes up shows that the people who insult Shakespeare are juvenile, though one up-timer things she solved an age old mystery by asking some guard of nobleman who writes Shakespeare's splays, then just assumed he was correct. Despite it involving a nobleman apparently writing plays for decades.

 

[Clandango]

A big part of 1633 occurs in London. The Granville Diplomatic mission is housed/ imprisoned in the Tower of London. Cromwell is introduced, and to be honest in a questionable fashion, Richelieu bribes Charles I into using the Royal Navy to smash the Dutch, and they burn down the Globe Theatre.

And Charles shows his selfishness by selling all claims in the Americas (maybe just North America, though when people got to the English in Guiana they felt rather unsettled and thought he was going to aband them all. Also later comes up that the Catholic Englishmen who had bought rights in Maryland would not get a refund (or be allowed to live in England anymore) and they had to pay Richeliua about an eigth of the price the French paid the English for everything. Though the zFrench intended to get the colonists even if they couldn't pay. Plus they combined it by pushing the French Protestants to leave for the New World and only told them their free voyage was going to be paid for by their money and land in France when they were onboard. I expect that this is all leading to the two groups going revolutionary once in the Americas.