What if Hitler made fighting Britain a serious consideration from the start..

[Drizzt]

Order the KM to thoroughly test it's torpedoes and then do the classic Supervillian + Piranha Tank + Incompetent Subordinates stick once it's clear how bad they suck.
Getting those fixed by September 1939 doesn't require ASBs, just a healthy respect for Murphys Law instead of assuming that superior German engineering will magically make everything work to specs. And manufacturing torpedoes that work doesn't cost more resources than manufacturing duds.

Other low-cost things that could have been done without drawing away resources from Heer and LW: as tigercat wrote. Raiders, Minelayers, etc. Train bomber pilots for anti-shipping missions not just ground strikes. Make Göring share recon planes.

 

[naraic]

In the real world Nazi Germany was flat out production wise in order to get where they did historically.

To produce more ships would have hurt something else. There was minimal slack.

What I wonder is what difference it wouldnhave made if on 10 June when Italy entered the war Italy landed troops on Malta and did an earlier equivalent to the raid on Alexandria.

Would that have pushed Britain to the brink of surrender in the wake of the fall of France.

Or what if after Mers El Kebir Vichy launch serious reprisal raids against Force H in Gibralter and sinking or heavily damaging the Hood Valiant and Resolution.

Or what if both happen. Britain will be down Malta and 5 battleships leaving Italy in a somewhat dominant position in the Mediterranean Sea and free to run wild. Will that result in Britain seeking peace terms.

Sorry I know it's not what you were looking for in the op but its the only combination of events where I see Britain rolling over in 1940. Any other serious diversion of resources will see Germany fail at Poland imo.

 

[vizzer]

Germany could try to do a Norwegian style invasion of the UK before any declaration of war but looking at the scale of this against the difference in population/resources of the UK & Norway it would need to be many times bigger leading to a much larger chance of discovery.

 

[Gudestein]

Order the KM to thoroughly test it's torpedoes and then do the classic Supervillian + Piranha Tank + Incompetent Subordinates stick once it's clear how bad they suck.
Getting those fixed by September 1939 doesn't require ASBs, just a healthy respect for Murphys Law instead of assuming that superior German engineering will magically make everything work to specs. And manufacturing torpedoes that work doesn't cost more resources than manufacturing duds.

Other low-cost things that could have been done without drawing away resources from Heer and LW: as tigercat wrote. Raiders, Minelayers, etc. Train bomber pilots for anti-shipping missions not just ground strikes. Make Göring share recon planes.

Just an example of how difficult it is. Nobody made live torpedo firing drills.
The magnet detonator was often ok with little magnetic interference like in mist of the western Baltic. The running too deep problem happened after days submerged.
Why would Germany solve that particular problem which took a lot to figure out and they didn't know existed.
And then connect that problem solved with the others through a pod. Not easy.

 

[Antiochus V]

Germany could try to do a Norwegian style invasion of the UK before any declaration of war but looking at the scale of this against the difference in population/resources of the UK & Norway it would need to be many times bigger leading to a much larger chance of discovery.

Uh huh

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Just an example of how difficult it is. Nobody made live torpedo firing drills.
The magnet detonator was often ok with little magnetic interference like in mist of the western Baltic. The running too deep problem happened after days submerged.
Why would Germany solve that particular problem which took a lot to figure out and they didn't know existed.
And then connect that problem solved with the others through a pod. Not easy.

Very good point

Also they were some of the most expensive and complex weapons then made

In the 30s 'testing' was conducted with dedicated torpedoes with dummy warheads.

The issue with this is that these test weapons were very well cared for resulting in near perfect tests every time they were used.

The same is true of live tests with a live warhead - because of the expense of the weapons and the rarity of such a test the torpedo would have been carefully inspected before use.

Had a random sample of live weapons that had been in storage or sat on a warship for months - been 'live tested' then many of the problem might have been discovered - but this was unlikely to happen during peacetime austerity.

 

[Tonrich]

Just an example of how difficult it is. Nobody made live torpedo firing drills.
The magnet detonator was often ok with little magnetic interference like in mist of the western Baltic. The running too deep problem happened after days submerged.
Why would Germany solve that particular problem which took a lot to figure out and they didn't know existed.
And then connect that problem solved with the others through a pod. Not easy.

I will agree that they are not "easy" problems, but that's what the engineers that work these things get paid for! There was absolutely no excuse for the torpedo problems to exist, particularly for Germany when they knew how important that weapon would be!

Sorry I get a little exercised about this topic because it's so basic. It's like having faulty fuses in artillery shells. How long do you think the Army would have had to wait for a fix if they discovered 1/2 of their shells didn't explode?

 

[Maeglin]

Infiltrate british communist party and foment industrial unrest .

Rather hard to do when your party's reason for existence is crushing Communism.

 

[Colonel Grubb]

Develop a network of agents in various ports with aim to sabotage British Merchant shipping and to provide intelligence on ship movements .

Concentrate on asymmetrical naval warfare. So more Merchant Raiders , and build the proposed class of fast Minelayers .

Take Goering in hand and give more resources to a Long Range Maritime patrol and attack aircraft.

Pre position arms caches in various British colonies then send in agent provocateurs to provoke nationalists , give most fanatical , training and access to arms caches.

Commando raids on Venezuela , Trinidad and Tobago and Middle East to destroy oil infrastructure.

Buy old , laid up Merchant shipping through whatever means possible from 1933....through shell companies if necessary .

Have agents in ports assassinate merchant navy captains and engineers where ever possible once war has commenced where possible use local criminal organisations for this task.

More E boats with bomb proof pens once France falls.

Target coastal convoys

Increase aerial minelaying capacity.

Encourage unionization of Merchant Seamen

Infiltrate british communist party and foment industrial unrest .

Black Propaganda radio stations , more subtle than Lord Haw Haw

Sounds more like the plot lines from a Commando comic

 

[Wolf of Badenoch]

Surely given the strategic and tactical difficulties of defeating the RN or achieving air superiority before attempting a moat crossing, the answer lies very much in developing Tigercat's more subtle approach? Go further than fomenting trouble and infiltrating the unions etc. Develop agents of influence, suborn politicians and the intelligentsia, support sympathisers and essentially do what the Comintern tried to do, but do it more effectively with more (unlimited?) resources. Much easier to neutralise a country than defeat it.

 

[Antiochus V]

Sounds more like the plot lines from a Commando comic

You make that sound like a bad thing

 

[Michele]

The Germans have a nice new shining fleet but not enough land forces, so the Czechoslovakians give them rude gestures.
Nevertheless, and with his cash-strapped treasury bleeding white, sooner or later Hitler manages to get embroiled in a naval war with Britain; the British land allies, i.e. France and Poland, walk their ground forces into Germany against weak German resistance. The German flag over the Chancellery is lowered by Polish cavalrymen.
End of the fun and games.

 

[Deckhand]

The Germans have a nice new shining fleet but not enough land forces, so the Czechoslovakians give them rude gestures.
Nevertheless, and with his cash-strapped treasury bleeding white, sooner or later Hitler manages to get embroiled in a naval war with Britain; the British land allies, i.e. France and Poland, walk their ground forces into Germany against weak German resistance. The German flag over the Chancellery is lowered by Polish cavalrymen.
End of the fun and games.

And this has the bonus of best result for Germany as well.

 

[Michele]

Historically from 1933 to 1939 , the KM got 2 billion RM investment in warship to generate the fleet they got, with another 1 billion in infrastructure & personal costs. By comparison the estimated rearmament costing was ~ 74 billion RM FROM 1933-1939. Costs for the HEER are estimated @ 38+9 billion RM ,while LW cost were about 12+2 billion RM. Another 10 BRM was spent on bases bunkers & barracks.

First thing, a base, bunker or barracks used by the Kriegsmarine is a Kriegsmarine infrastructural project and it's weird that it gets separated.

Secondly and more importantly, I'd like to know your source. Overy disagrees with it, and he cites the Reichsfinanzministerium's statistics and Schwerin von Krosigk. He provides the budget data on p. 203 of his War and Economy in the Third Reich, and the Heer and Luftwaffe's figures dwarf the Kriegsmarine's only in 1939, something like 15:1 (which is still 6.6% and not 4%). But in 1938 it's 6:1, and in 1937, 1936 and 1935 it's 4:1.
Taking into account the period 1935 to 1939, the overall ratio (Heer+Luftwaffe versus Kriegsmarine) is 5.5:1, which in percentage is 18% of the total military spending budget for the Kriegsmarine.

It's entirely possible that the Finance ministry is calculating investments in things like shipyards and tank and aircraft factories, too, I don't know. That would make sense, though, you don't get that fleet or those tank divisions without a place where to build them.

 

[Gudestein]

I will agree that they are not "easy" problems, but that's what the engineers that work these things get paid for! There was absolutely no excuse for the torpedo problems to exist, particularly for Germany when they knew how important that weapon would be!

Sorry I get a little exercised about this topic because it's so basic. It's like having faulty fuses in artillery shells. How long do you think the Army would have had to wait for a fix if they discovered 1/2 of their shells didn't explode?

I do Think the responsible was convicted of treason eventually, bit the reasons outlined above, it was not easy to fix pre-war and with perfect test results, reports of missed detonations were initially blaimed on the aim of the submariner.

 

[PSL]

First thing, a base, bunker or barracks used by the Kriegsmarine is a Kriegsmarine infrastructural project and it's weird that it gets separated.

Secondly and more importantly, I'd like to know your source. Overy disagrees with it, and he cites the Reichsfinanzministerium's statistics and Schwerin von Krosigk. He provides the budget data on p. 203 of his War and Economy in the Third Reich, and the Heer and Luftwaffe's figures dwarf the Kriegsmarine's only in 1939, something like 15:1 (which is still 6.6% and not 4%). But in 1938 it's 6:1, and in 1937, 1936 and 1935 it's 4:1.
Taking into account the period 1935 to 1939, the overall ratio (Heer+Luftwaffe versus Kriegsmarine) is 5.5:1, which in percentage is 18% of the total military spending budget for the Kriegsmarine.

It's entirely possible that the Finance ministry is calculating investments in things like shipyards and tank and aircraft factories, too, I don't know. That would make sense, though, you don't get that fleet or those tank divisions without a place where to build them.

GERMANY'S PREPARATION FOR WAR: A RE-EXAMINATION* By BURTON KLEIN

http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/cap...ries/RefsHistoricalGermanAccounts/Klein48.pdf

http://www.millersville.edu/holocon/files/The Buildup of the German War Economy.pdf

GERMANY AND THE SECOND WORLD WAR -VOL-1 ed, WILHELM DEIST

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Just a question.

Given the rapid development of the 'Gigant' from spec issue to first flight.

How would large amounts say, of Focke-Wulf Ta 158's escorting German radial equivalent powered Gigants air landing into Britain?

 

[Look More Closely Later]

So, its widely know that Hitler held a rather odd opinions in relation to Britain. Specifically, his belief that some kind of peace deal could be reached with the British once the Continent was secured ( ignoring even recent history demonstrating that Britain was willing to fight fiercely to prevent a continental hegemony arising).
Lets say then that Hitler arrives at a different position in relation to Britain from 1933 onward and orders that serious contingency planning be put in place to deal with Britain in the event that it decides to fight on following a potential defeat of the French.
Realistically, what can Hitler do to maximize preparation for a siege of Britain without prematurely provoking the Anglo-French in the 30s?

Not fighting the 'Anglo-French' is a better option. Ally with one or both of them, and all go together to beat up those beastly communist Russians!

Edit:
Of course the diplomacy required to pull that off may be somewhat tricky, and requires the right men or women in the right places...

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

In relation to 'Partering up', weren't the Comunists/Socialists quite active in the French political scene?

Wasn't there some troubles in France in the 1930's?

 

[matlef]

At work.

Just a question.

Given the rapid development of the 'Gigant' from spec issue to first flight.

How would large amounts say, of Focke-Wulf Ta 158's escorting German radial equivalent powered Gigants air landing into Britain?

I'm not sure which aircraft you are talking about. I can't find a Ta 158, i do find a Ta 154, but that didn't fly until 1943 as far as i can tell. By which point invading Britain is really far far down the list of German priorities.

I assume you mean something like the unpowered Me 321 but with engines, but even if they design it with engines from the start you probably won't get it sooner than OTL and february of 1941 is even that a bit too late, nevermind that diverting engines to get them built in sufficient quantity would impact the construction of more useful types of aircraft.