Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread
- Thread starter Beedok
- Start date
This is really interesting, but I've never read anything on this proposal before. What's the original source?
Russia's plans for the invasion of the Ottomans, before Britain's refusal lead to the Crimean War:
- Moldavia, Wallachia, and Northern Bulgaria would be annexed directly into the Russian Empire.
- Southern Bulgaria and Serbia would be declared as Independent states under Russian protection.
- Austria would gain Bosnia and Montenegro; possibly Albania.
- The United Kingdom would gain Egypt, Cyprus, and the Dodecanese (Rhodes).
- France would gain the isle of Crete.
- Greece would gain the remaining Aegean isles.
- Constantinople would be made a Free City, with a Russian garrison on the Bosphorus, and an Austrian garrison on the Dardenelles.
- The entirety of Bessarabia was originally to be transferred to either Turkey or Moldavia, to give the Ottomans a more defensible position against any future Russian incursion.
- The British wanted the Black Sea and the Azoz Sea neutralized.
- The British wanted Russian Shipyards, specifically those in Nicolaieff, completely dismantled.
- The establishment of a Circassian State, under British and Ottoman protection, which would act as yet another buffer against Russian intentions.
- Allegedly they wanted an independent Poland, but this was mostly a bluff. They probably would have simply made Russia give Poland more autonomy, if anything.
- Some sort of Free Trade policy throughout the Mediterranean, if not all of Europe.
- The Sardinians were promised Parma and Modena, whose rulers would replace those of Wallachia and Moldavia.
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Based on the article (which is mostly behind a paywall but the free introduction does explicitly mention it) it would've been a replacement and not an addition.
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Do invasion plans count as "proposals that didn't happen?"
If they do, I have this old (and thus low quality) map of a NATO invasion of Russia and Belarus, circulated in Russian anti-Western sources in the early 2000s:
The creators of that map also thought Ukraine would turn against Russia and let NATO aircraft use their airbases.
If they do, I have this old (and thus low quality) map of a NATO invasion of Russia and Belarus, circulated in Russian anti-Western sources in the early 2000s:
The creators of that map also thought Ukraine would turn against Russia and let NATO aircraft use their airbases.
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James G
Gone Fishin'
Do invasion plans count as "proposals that didn't happen?"
If they do, I have this old (and thus low quality) map of a NATO invasion of Russia and Belarus, circulated in Russian anti-Western sources in the early 2000s:
The creators of that map also thought Ukraine would turn against Russia and let NATO aircraft use their airbases.
Amazing... in the terms of being logistically impossible to run an invasion out of the Baltic States. Moreover, the map creator has messed with the map to stretch certain countries and bring Moscow westwards as well. It all looks deceivingly simple.
You want some maps? I've got some maps...
Turkish State (Misak-ı Millî)
The Ottoman Parliament, in its final term, made a set of decisions that essentially passed the Turkish National Movement's idea of the Turkish Homeland into law. This conception of Turkey includes more of Western Thrace, Adjara (which in OTL became part of Georgia as an autonomous republic), and the Aleppo and Mosul Vilayets. The darker areas were areas that, while considered to be part of the core Turkish territories, had an Arab majority and would be allowed referenda on their future status.
Treaty of Sèvres
This treaty was signed but never ratified by the Ottoman Parliament, and was ultimately rejected after the Turkish War of Independence in 1919-23. The territorial changes are as follows:
Turkish State (Misak-ı Millî)
The Ottoman Parliament, in its final term, made a set of decisions that essentially passed the Turkish National Movement's idea of the Turkish Homeland into law. This conception of Turkey includes more of Western Thrace, Adjara (which in OTL became part of Georgia as an autonomous republic), and the Aleppo and Mosul Vilayets. The darker areas were areas that, while considered to be part of the core Turkish territories, had an Arab majority and would be allowed referenda on their future status.
Treaty of Sèvres
This treaty was signed but never ratified by the Ottoman Parliament, and was ultimately rejected after the Turkish War of Independence in 1919-23. The territorial changes are as follows:
- The coasts of the Bosporus, Dardanelles, and the Sea of Marmara are placed under international occupation.
- Greece annexes Western Thrace, but not Constantinople itself. They also occupy Smyrna and its environs, but it's unclear whether or not they were supposed to annex it.
- Italy occupies much of southwestern Anatolia. Italy wanted to annex the territory outright, forming a colony named Lydia (although the classical Lydia was only a part of the occupation zone, but reasons like that haven't stopped empires before).
- France occupies central-eastern Anatolia north to Sivas and the new Armenian border.
- The UK occupies a tiny bit of the Kurdish Highlands.
- Northern Arabia is divided up mostly following the Sykes-Picot Agreement, with the League of Nations mandate for Syria going to France and the mandates for Palestine and Mesopotamia going to the UK. The UK also has a "zone of influence" between their mandates which was almost certainly not intended to be a permanent border with a future Arab state.
- Armenia annexes a vast swathe of eastern Anatolia, including the important city of Trebizond.
- The treaty had a provision for a Kurdish state east of the Euphrates and between the Arab LoN Mandates and Armenia, which was also allowed to have territory in the Mosul vilayet. The treaty's actually pretty vague as far as Mosul goes, probably because the British really wanted it but didn't want to violate Wilson's Fourteen Points or something.
- Hejaz is granted independence.
That... is a strange, strange treaty. I didn't really appreciate its strangeness until it was all spelled out. Why on Earth did anyone involved think Turkey would accept this? And that is one. Big. Armenia. Gotta say, though, the divisions in the rest of the Middle East are strangely pleasing to the eye, in a sleek, minimalist, ergonomic, horribly colonialist sense. The way that curve in Arabia matches with the straight line in Mesopotamia... yummy. Also, the independent Hejaz makes me squee. But yeah, talk about a rough deal for Turkey.
The Misak-i Milli proposal, on the other hand, seems a bit off on what it considers "Turkish." There are some lands included that aren't even in that darker shade, that even then were decidedly not Turkish. Both of these, I guess, just go to show how unrealistic and hair-brained some map propositions were in history. And still are today, looking at the Middle East.
Wonderful work, man, just wonderful work.
I don't think anyone was under the illusion that Turkey would accept it. They just thought Turkey could do nothing about it.
Well, guess they were wrong there, too. Of course, they should have stopped underestimating the Turks after Gallipoli....