Alternate warships of nations

[Peg Leg Pom]

This would be plausable in a more rational air/navy ministry. I dunno what aircraft though, but preferably an improvement on what the FAA started with IE no Roc's and Sea Gladiators (save perhaps have Glads on the Hermes and Argus because smol.)

Aircraft types on 1/9/39 assuming the D Class carriers prompted more investment in Naval Aviation.
Fighters
Sea Gladiators being fazed out in favour of Gloster built Sea Hurricanes (with folding wings)
Scout/Dive Bombers
Skua with Fulmar in final stages of development
Torpedo Bomber
Fairey Swordfish and Albacore
Communications
Supermarine Walrus

 

[steamboy]

I could imagine their might be more support if a D was forced to sail with half her compliment because there wasn't the aircraft available without stripping her sister's airgroup or gutting the other carriers. Especially if this came to light rather publically and some press whipped it up as a point of shame.

 

[Some Bloke]

Leading to the Fleet Air arm returning to full Naval control earlier?

Maybe have the Gloster F.5/34 enter service earlier with Blackburn assisting in supply?
What with Australia building aa couple of Cockatoo cruisers and jumpstarting the ship building
industry, a licence build of the F.5/34 might do the same for the aircraft industry.

 

[steamboy]

ahh the classic of the WW2 WIs.

A - A working Westland Whirlwind
B - The F.5/34

I suppose the RAF would be going

With the Hurricane so maybe the FAA/RNAS gets the F.5/34 due to lack of capacity to produce both a navalized version of the Hurricane and the RAF's one?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I could imagine their might be more support if a D was forced to sail with half her compliment because there wasn't the aircraft available without stripping her sister's airgroup or gutting the other carriers. Especially if this came to light rather publically and some press whipped it up as a point of shame.

The ship is sent on a Flag waving tour and while in the States the press picks up on the size of the air group compared to the broadly similar Lexington and raises a huge stink about the embarrassing state of British Naval Aviation. This could be further pushed if the journalist that breaks the story is a former officer in the Royal Naval Air Service.

 

[Some Bloke]

Although with the earlier abolition of duel control, this might mean the alt Ark Royals could be the standard
carrier type. To what extent was the Armoured Carrier concept a way of making the most out of ships with a limited
airgroup thanks to air ministry meddling?

 

[steamboy]

I dunno how to design a carrier but this as Pom found below;

Was the kind of vision I had for the Admiral class being converted into a carrier. I have no idea how many aircraft she could carry, probably a bit more once a refit is done to remove those 5.5's on the sides and stern. But lets call it 64 aircraft, but she's forced to sail with 32 due to there simply not being the planes available to have planes on all the RN carriers at full strength and then go from this?

The ship is sent on a Flag waving tour and while in the States the press picks up on the size of the air group compared to the broadly similar Lexington and raises a huge stink about the embarrassing state of British Naval Aviation. This could be further pushed if the journalist that breaks the story is a former officer in the Royal Naval Air Service.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Your Aircraft numbers are a bit low as the Lexington Class carrier 78 aircraft. An Admiral Class carrier being roughly the same size would have the potential for a similar sized air group say around 72. The new carrier would then be sailing with say 36 aircraft. The aircraft themselves would be an embarrassment due to poor performance, particularly the Fairey Flycatcher. A delightful aircraft to fly that could only have caught a fly in a powerdive. The Fairey III dates back to 1917 and the Blackburn Ripon although not bad is very slow, as is it's replacement the Blackburn Baffin. All these aircraft are less able than their US counterparts largely due to lack of investment.

 

[steamboy]

Hmm okay, well that could be used, basically start a bit of a public hue and cry about it. I don't know how long the RN was trying to get control of its aircraft but this could really be used to try get it under RN control earlier than JUST before the outbreak of war.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

They very nearly got control back in 1924, and never stopped trying. With the embarrassment of large but half empty carriers and the resulting scandal then 1932/33 should be doable to return Naval Aviation to RN ownership, with it being fully independent of the RAF by 1936 though things like ground crew and initial air crew training may be shared.

 

[steamboy]

They very nearly got control back in 1924, and never stopped trying. With the embarrassment of large but half empty carriers and the resulting scandal then 1932/33 should be doable to return Naval Aviation to RN ownership, with it being fully independent of the RAF by 1936 though things like ground crew and initial air crew training may be shared.

Okay so Idea, in 1927 the RN sends the Dauntless and Defiance over to the US on a flag showing tour before heading through the Canal and on to Singers before coming home via India and the Suez. During the tour its found that both big carriers are half empty because there's not the aircraft to fully man them, indeed they had to borrow aircraft off the other carriers to reach this level.

There was also a 'war game' against the Saratoga and Lexington and the result is a debacle. The RN fliers are outnumbered in slower, less capable aircraft than their opponents and are judged to have been sunk on 2 out of 3 times before they could retaliate.
This causes a stink in the press and parliment to say the least.

 

[Archibald]

https://translate.google.com/transl...croiseurs-lourds/&&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&sl=fr&tl=en

Even if you don't speak French you can get through the website: the translator I used seems to work for the entire site.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

It wouldn't only be in Britain that there'd be a stink. The Australian and New Zealand governments would be furious. The defence of Australia and New Zealand largely rests with the Royal Navy, for it to be shown to be weak in this way would be unacceptable. They would press for serious improvements to be made. It may even lead to them looking to their own defences more. Early RNZN and an enlarged RAN? RAN take over Argus?

 

[steamboy]

It wouldn't only be in Britain that there'd be a stink. The Australian and New Zealand governments would be furious. The defence of Australia and New Zealand largely rests with the Royal Navy, for it to be shown to be weak in this way would be unacceptable. They would press for serious improvements to be made. It may even lead to them looking to their own defences more. Early RNZN and an enlarged RAN? RAN take over Argus?

Okay so going with this lets assume that this helps also get the Cockatoo yards built and the three RAN heavy cruisers built at those yards. Possibly a 4th under construction in the UK is put aside for the RNZN. I dunno what CLs would be built, i'd assume Leander/Arethusa types, perhaps the Cockatoo yard can make Arethusa type ships for the RAN?

With the FAA/RNAS coming back under Admiralty control in say 30 following a big 'ol row in the MOD (With shared facilities etc) the next RN Carrier and her follow on could be basically Ark Royals and improved Ark's (less of a round down on the stern etc). The only problem with this is that this is basically doing what Whale with Wings did (and did well!) so its not that original.

 

[AlanJWhite]

Aircraft types on 1/9/39 assuming the D Class carriers prompted more investment in Naval Aviation.
Fighters
Sea Gladiators being fazed out in favour of Gloster built Sea Hurricanes (with folding wings)
Scout/Dive Bombers
Skua with Fulmar in final stages of development
Torpedo Bomber
Fairey Swordfish and Albacore
Communications
Supermarine Walrus

I strongly suggest you drop the Albacore.

Even the OTL RN knew the Albacore was not good enough, they issued a requirement for it's replacement before the first prototype flew. (That was the Requirement S.24/37 that eventually lead to the Fairey Barracuda)

If you decide the RN would benefit from a better biplane TSR simply ask Fairey for an improved Mark of the Swordfish. OTL they were able to fit a closed cockpit and ought to have improved the engine. IIRC the original Swordfish had an engine upgrade even before it was accepted.

Use the time, money and brainpower saved to bring forward the first monoplane TSR
perhaps even taking the route of a design like the Supermarine 322 which had the attraction of using less strategic material.
If started earlier then like your TTL Fulmar it would also be in "final stages of development" in 1939

 

[AlanJWhite]

Okay so Idea, in 1927 the RN sends the Dauntless and Defiance over to the US on a flag showing tour before heading through the Canal and on to Singers before coming home via India and the Suez. During the tour its found that both big carriers are half empty because there's not the aircraft to fully man them, indeed they had to borrow aircraft off the other carriers to reach this level.

There was also a 'war game' against the Saratoga and Lexington and the result is a debacle. The RN fliers are outnumbered in slower, less capable aircraft than their opponents and are judged to have been sunk on 2 out of 3 times before they could retaliate.
This causes a stink in the press and parliment to say the least.

Nice idea ... but in 1927 while two FAA carriers might have been outnumbered in aircraft they wont be flying worse aircraft. 1937 though would be different but probably too late for full effect of the premise

 

[steamboy]

Nice idea ... but in 1927 while two FAA carriers might have been outnumbered in aircraft they wont be flying worse aircraft. 1937 though would be different but probably too late for full effect of the premise

I'm trying to find what aircraft the USN had aboard the Lex and Sara in the late 20's to do a raw numbers comparison with what the FAA was flying at the time. But assuming the RN gets control of its aircraft back in 1930 thats more than enough time to make changes and get designs going for 1939.

Okay assuming the USN had these

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_F6C_Hawk

And the RN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Flycatcher

The RN aircraft are 20 MPH slower, with a lower maximum height and a slower rate of climb.

And they are going to be outumbered. The FAA pilots might be good but with inferior machines and outnumbered its not going to end well even in an exercise.

 

[AlanJWhite]

But assuming the RN gets control of its aircraft back in 1930 thats more than enough time to make changes and get designs going for 1939.

Agreed that 1930 is earlier enough for better aircraft - even without the impetus of your suggested Pacific wargames -
but if the suggested type D carriers exist in 1927 there must also have been an earlier increase in the interest in naval aviation

BTW good luck tracking British naval plane designs in the 20's and 30's.
AIUI there were new designs roughly every 2 years (not counting significant upgrades)

 

[steamboy]

Agreed that 1930 is earlier enough for better aircraft - even without the impetus of your suggested Pacific wargames -
but if the suggested type D carriers exist in 1927 there must also have been an earlier increase in the interest in naval aviation

BTW good luck tracking British naval plane designs in the 20's and 30's.
AIUI there were new designs roughly every 2 years (not counting significant upgrades)

Eep! Okay thats a bit bonkers :s Re the D's basically they were built instead of the Follies which were never laid down in my wee AU. You've then got the dead hand of the RAF on the wheel for the RN's plane development during the 20's up until 1930 (say summer 1930).

And a thought (and probably a wank) before the advent of Radar, maybe the FAA/RNAS sees the need for a fast interceptor type aircraft, one that's got the oomph to get up fast in the face of an oncoming threat. So what if they looked at the Supermarine S.5 and S.6 as a basis for a carrier based short range interceptor?

 

[Some Bloke]

@steamboy how about "The Battlecruiser scare" as a title for a TL based on your recent posts?