Am I the only one offended by S.M. Stirlings Emberverse series?

[Faeelin]

I think if you can see the Meiji Restoration go so off the rails that they become parodies of Fu Manchu then there's not much to say. Imperialist Japan? Sure. Imperialist Japanese who decide to assimilate to Chinese culture because... those cannibals they conwierrrd are appealing? Hm.

 

[Spartasman]

@Agricola64
If you aren't S.M. Stirling in disguise I'll eat my hat.

 

[B_Munro]

@Agricola64
If you aren't S.M. Stirling in disguise I'll eat my hat.

He does seem to have joined mainly to do posts on the Emberverse.

Sure. Imperialist Japanese who decide to assimilate to Chinese culture because... those cannibals they conwierrrd are appealing? Hm.

To be fair, the Chinese didn't descend (at least in the south of the country) to cannibal horde status: still had something like a functional (if politically fragmented) society and cultural continuity after the population bottomed out. And Japanese probably didn't have as low an opinion of the Chinese in 1877 as they would by 1931. And a certain amount of assimilation of Chinese culture would certainly help them maintain their rule: a lot of examination of the Lancers-verse includes a discussion of how of course the Chinese would throw out the Japanese overlords and perhaps even conquer Japan by the 2020s ("now" for the novel, IIRC?)

That being said, there were far too many annoying bits of "exoticism" in the description of the Japanese in the book, and given that the book described India descending into neo-feudal backwardness in the immediate aftermath of the catastrophe, it seems more likely than not that the Japanese would end up the more "modern" power by the 2000s.

 

[B-29_Bomber]

Am I offended by Stirling?

Nope. Why should I be? I don't find his stuff appealing so I don't read it, thus he's a complete non-entity to me.

Why be offended by something like that, especially since his premises are so out there? Make a quick mental note that you don't like the author's works and move on to another author.

By being offended by Stirling is a choice because you chose to pick up one of his works and read it and honestly I have more important things to do than be offended by some minor hack writer.

Stirling, mate, Sempai will never notice you.

 

[Kaiphranos]

My theory at this point is that Stirling's goal with the Emberverse is to develop the ultimate Swashbuckling Adventure setting, where he can mash up whatever cultures and literary characters he feels like. Hence we get odd pockets of survivors who have painstakingly reconstructed Anglo-Saxon Britain or whatnot.

 

[Petike]

My theory at this point is that Stirling's goal with the Emberverse is to develop the ultimate Swashbuckling Adventure setting, where he can mash up whatever cultures and literary characters he feels like. Hence we get odd pockets of survivors who have painstakingly reconstructed Anglo-Saxon Britain or whatnot.

Isn't the post-Change UK essentially ruled by a half-crazed Prince Charles, with people Morris-dancing everywhere ? I seem to remember Stirling cooked up something like that, based on reading others' feedback. Also, John Birmingham apparently has a cameo in some chapter that references Australia.

-- let's see...

long reply

Take a chill pill. We're allowed to criticise Stirling. He won't lose a penny over our criticism, nor are we threatening him on a personal level or anything. We're criticquing him as a writer, for what we see as flaws and clichés in his writing and some of his views on cultural and social topics.

The premise of the Emberverse is that ASB decide to destroy modern civilization so humanity can learn to live better. The problem IMO is that this just doesn't jive up to OTL history and ethics as it relates to technological development to the point that it almost strikes me as historically ignorant. Human technical progress throughout most of history was not a steady incline of development. Most civilizations were pretty much 'stuck' at a fairly medieval level of development for hundreds of years and they certainly were not pumping out any great ethical advances during that time either (except to promote stability which I can't think of any exception that didn't go hand in hand with promoting stasis to 'lock in' their society's social structure to protect the aristocrats/rulers). It just seems nonsensical to me to kick humanity down the ladder, remove the rungs of technological progress and force society to function where just to obtain the necessities of daily life make life "nasty, brutish, and short".

Your entire post is very well argued, but this paragraph stands out IMHO, Thanks for the thoughtful criticque.

 

[Agricola64]

I think if you can see the Meiji Restoration go so off the rails that they become parodies of Fu Manchu then there's not much to say. Imperialist Japan? Sure. Imperialist Japanese who decide to assimilate to Chinese culture because... those cannibals they conwierrrd are appealing? Hm.

-- in the scene you're apparently thinking of, there's a (Chinese) Mandarin wearing exactly what Chinese Mandarins wore before the Revolution of 1911, which in that timeline never happens. The Japanese character is wearing Edo-period Japanese costume, roughly, which obviously assumes there's been a nativist reaction -- and given the absence of Western example/competition after the comet impact that seems reasonable enough.

Again, what's your point here?

 

[Agricola64]

those cannibals they conwierrrd are appealing? Hm.

-- the text doesn't suggest cannibalism in either Japan or China, so again, what's your point?

Critiquing a book is fine, as long as you critique what's actually in the book. But you're apparently seeing things that aren't there, and making assumptions unsupported by the text... and we all know what "assume" does, don't we?

 

[Faeelin]

-- in the scene you're apparently thinking of, there's a (Chinese) Mandarin wearing exactly what Chinese Mandarins wore before the Revolution of 1911, which in that timeline never happens. The Japanese character is wearing Edo-period Japanese costume, roughly, which obviously assumes there's been a nativist reaction -- and given the absence of Western example/competition after the comet impact that seems reasonable enough.

Again, what's your point here?

Ah yes, these cultures, despite the comet hits, remained trapped in amber. But the British become a Hindu caste.

 

[Faeelin]

-- the text doesn't suggest cannibalism in either Japan or China, so again, what's your point?

China suffers a complete breakdown, although apparently not to the level that culture changes from the 19th century Qing. The Japanese go on rice offensives.

Somehow, neither culture had cannibalism?

Critiquing a book is fine, as long as you critique what's actually in the book. But you're apparently seeing things that aren't there, and making assumptions unsupported by the text... and we all know what "assume" does, don't we?

Joke's on you, I'm a huge asshole. It is why I got so many fans on YouTube.

 

[Agricola64]

My theory at this point is that Stirling's goal with the Emberverse is to develop the ultimate Swashbuckling Adventure setting, where he can mash up whatever cultures and literary characters he feels like. Hence we get odd pockets of survivors who have painstakingly reconstructed Anglo-Saxon Britain or whatnot.

-- the author has stated several times on facebook and elsewhere that the Emberverse is "my Hyborian Age", which seems fair enough. The Peshawar Lancers is of course an open and affectionate homage to the exuberant adventure fiction of the classic pulp "Oriental Adventure" stories, from Harold Lamb and Talbot Mundy on down, with a nod to Kipling along the way, especially to Kim. (He did an introduction to a volume of the University of Nebraska Press collection of Lamb's Cossack stories.) I'd say there's influence from Sienkiewicz et. al. too.

With the caveat that Howard was attempting to put "genuine" medieval Europeans, Renaissance-era Turks, ancient Egyptians, quasi-Iroquois Picts and so forth all in the same setting; which is sorta cool, and not altogether different from what Tolkien did with Middle Earth; where you have Anglo-Gothic Rohirrim, 19th-century English yokel Hobbits, late-medieval-European Gondor, and Saracenic "Corsairs of Umbar" plus Treasure-Island style primitive Woodwoses, and many more.

What the Emberverse does is put "reconstructed" versions of past cultures in the same setting; the descendants of SCA types "living the LARP" meeting neo-samurai whose ancestors were demented Japanese nationalist reactionaries and so forth and so on. Cowboys and Romans and pirates, oh my! In other words, they're not fake past cultures trying pass as real (fictional) ones, they're -actually fake- recreations of past cultures, themselves modeled in part on historical/fantasy fiction. A bit recursive, but fun.

Just as The Sky People and In the Courts of the Crimson Kings are a homage to "planetary romance" by Burroughs, Brackett and so forth. Christ, Leigh Brackett appears as a character in the prologue to Crimson Kings, which is like, a hint, one would think.

This seems to get some people's goat; God alone knows why, and God knows there's enough fiction of different types out there to suit anyone's taste.

 

[Faeelin]

Hi Steve!

 

[Faeelin]

One reason, I think, is you can do a homage and do it in an interesting manner. Charlie Stross's Saturn's Children is a good example.

But cloaking silly world building by saying Kipling had silly world building just feels weak.

If you're going to make up imaginary people and call them Americans, but don't act like Americans, why bother?

 

[Faeelin]

To defend Stiring, too bad lords of creation didn't sell well. That was interesting and could have gone somewhere.

 

[Agricola64]

Somehow, neither culture had cannibalism?.

-- the text doesn't specify one way or another. Now who's insisting everyone have cannibals? There's no satisfying some people, apparently; damned if he has cannibals, damned if he doesn't.

 

[wcv215]

Stirling, mate, Sempai will never notice you.

Not totally true. He knows of the board as he was banned from it, and I've seen him get defensive toward members who reviewed his work on other sites (I believe the specific instance I'm thinking of was against thekingsguard on mp's blog.)

 

[Agricola64]

Ah yes, these cultures, despite the comet hits, remained trapped in amber. But the British become a Hindu caste.

-- how do you know they've "remained trapped in amber"? All you can get from the text is that they dress in a certain way, and that they have (by the standards of the setting) high-tech weaponry, like efficient torpedoes. You're critiquing your own interpolations again, not what's in the text.

The (mixed-race) descendants of the British who moved to India are in the process of becoming a Hindu caste. Outsiders being culturally assimilated by India, gee, that could never happen... The ones in Australia are quite different; that's made clear.

 

[Faeelin]

-- the text doesn't specify one way or another. Now who's insisting everyone have cannibals? There's no satisfying some people, apparently; damned if he has cannibals, damned if he doesn't.

I actually don't mind cannibalism having been a thing. It was for historical famines, including in china (which is why it clearly happened). It's satanic cannibalist Russians that is silly.

 

[Faeelin]

They dress exactly as people did in the 1870s in both countries. I do like the idea that was a random meeting of larpers, and the East Asian prosperity sphere is doing great off screen. This is my new head canon, so thanks.

 

[Agricola64]

If you're going to make up imaginary people and call them Americans, but don't act like Americans, why bother?

-- How do "Americans" act? Which ones? President Obama, Duck Dynasty stars, 21st century Bay Area types, Teddy Roosevelt, Jefferson Davis, Emily Dickinson, or what? Again, you're not being very clear.