How would the Battle of Moscow turn out if it actually happened?

Hello,

I'm trying to write a story taking place in late 1941 that takes place through the eye's of a German soldier, where Army Group Center is able to advance to Moscow and heavy street to street fighting takes place, in essence basically Stalingrad 2.0

I'm curious to know how would the attack turn out for Moscow as a whole, and who would win the battle, all information would be extremely helpful.
 

Deleted member 1487

Hello,

I'm trying to write a story taking place in late 1941 that takes place through the eye's of a German soldier, where Army Group Center is able to advance to Moscow and heavy street to street fighting takes place, in essence basically Stalingrad 2.0

I'm curious to know how would the attack turn out for Moscow as a whole, and who would win the battle, all information would be extremely helpful.
Opinions vary. IMHO I'd say if the Germans actually made it to the city the government would start to unravel and the public would panic and flee. Street fighting would actually be pretty limited, because for the Germans to actually get there would have to be in mid-October before Soviet reserves showed up in force and the public was preparing to flee en masse. If they did, then Soviet reserves getting to the city thereafter would likely not be possible, so any major battle would be to take the city back and would go down in November.
 
It would be better for the Germans to encircle and starve out Moscow rather than actually attempt to conquer it block by block right away - an urban environment that size would swallow a whole army and would invite months of Stalingrad-esque "rattenkrieg" that would only serve to limit German firepower while allowing the Soviets to engage in close combat. Since Moscow has no equivalent of the Volga to prevent this, simply cutting off the railways leading out of the area would be almost as damaging to the USSR as the fall of the city itself.
 

Deleted member 1487

It would be better for the Germans to encircle and starve out Moscow rather than actually attempt to conquer it block by block right away - an urban environment that size would swallow a whole army and would invite months of Stalingrad-esque "rattenkrieg" that would only serve to limit German firepower while allowing the Soviets to engage in close combat. Since Moscow has no equivalent of the Volga to prevent this, simply cutting off the railways leading out of the area would be almost as damaging to the USSR as the fall of the city itself.
The difference is there is not 62nd army to fall back into the city and hold it. It was filled with civilians about to bug out in the millions headed east, while the most combat capable Soviet troops would be overrun on the way to the city by German troops. I don't know who the Soviets would use to fight back in October 1941; it was more like the situation for Kiev 1941 than Stalingrad.
 
Well, it's gonna be a frontal assault. As with OTL, German logistical problems and the casualties inflicted upon their combat formations means encircling Moscow is pretty much a non-starter. The October panic was rather brief and limited, quickly giving way to a sense of defiance instead and preparations to defend the city were well advanced by mid-October. Soviet forces were very much preparing to go street-street in the city if they had to. Additionally, fresh Soviet reserves were preparing for a counter-offensive and engaging in a giant city battle effectively means the Germans would be willingly placing their heads in a giant guillotine.

This gets worse if the PoD that allows the Germans to reach Moscow is by foregoing Kiev, as it leaves AGC with even worse logistics, a tougher fight getting through initial Soviet defenses, and enormous exposed southern flank along which the Soviets can mass their counter-attack. The most likely outcome is basically a tide-turning victory for the Soviets that is basically a year-early Stalingrad: Germans grind themselves up in a urban battle for some weeks or months only for fresh Soviet reserves to slice through their overexposed flanks and cut them off.
 
Hello,

I'm trying to write a story taking place in late 1941 that takes place through the eye's of a German soldier, where Army Group Center is able to advance to Moscow and heavy street to street fighting takes place, in essence basically Stalingrad 2.0

I'm curious to know how would the attack turn out for Moscow as a whole, and who would win the battle, all information would be extremely helpful.

Depends a lot on what changes to enable this, as well as how the Soviets react to it. If the Germans do all around better and the Soviets panic when they roll in, they may well take Moscow easily and this leads to a Soviet capitulation. On the other hand, it could be a Germany at the end of their tether, ready to be smacked back since they've over-committed and the Soviets don't blink.

My guess is that unless it's by the barest of margins, the Germans take Moscow, do better in the winter and are ready to finish the Soviets in '42, assuming the Soviets don't quit before them. Doubly so if Stalin's dead, as whomever picks up the pieces will have problems from all corners. But really, how it happens can vary enough that you could have it work out any which way you prefer.
 
If the Germans do all around better

And if the Germans had the atomic bomb in 1941, they would have won the war. Given the already amazing scale and scope of German battlefield success during Barbarossa prior to mid-October 1941, alternate scenarios where Germany takes Moscow in 1941 or does even more damage to the Red Army belong more in the realm of fantasy. The Germans would have been better setting more realistic goals, not more extreme ones.
 
The Germans would have surrounded Moscow,to prevent resupply.The Russians would have fought street to street making it very costly for the Germans.The Germans might have taken Moscow but they wouldn't have held it long.More likely the Russians would relieve Moscow with a winter offensive, preventing it's fall.
Stalin refused to abandon Moscow and said "If Moscow falls so do I" .
One way or another Stalin probably isn't surviving the Battle of Moscow , leading up to some interesting political events.
 
This gets worse if the PoD that allows the Germans to reach Moscow is by foregoing Kiev, as it leaves AGC with ...<snip>... and enormous exposed southern flank along which the Soviets can mass their counter-attack.

The Soviet trying to replicate the Barvenkovo offensive 6-7 months early by reinforcing forces in an exposed bulge might not be the smartest move on their part.
They would probably think long and hard on making the tough decision to abandon Kiev given an successful AGC offensive in early September.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Soviet trying to replicate the Barvenkovo offensive 6-7 months early by reinforcing forces in an exposed bulge might not be the smartest move on their part.
They would probably think long and hard on making the tough decision to abandon Kiev given an successful AGC offensive in early September.
Exactly, the Soviet logistics and power projection ability was severely limited and would only be more so with Moscow falling in September. Their offensive abilities given OTL from that direction toward AG-Center's flank while AG-South was pushing on their's was minimal even if they faced the German 2nd army by itself. Plus if Moscow is chosen, then 4th Panzer Group is also detached in August from AG-North, which sits still on the Luga to guard the flank; 4th Panzer Army then strikes out East from it's positions near the Luga, plus an intact VIII air corps supports them and 3rd Panzer army in gobbling up the Soviet armies on the flanks of AG-Center. This is OTL AG-Center on August 24th:
August 24th.jpg


Any chance of burning the city to the ground like 1812?
Absolutely not, it had to be retained intact by the Soviets, as it was too important as an industrial city, communications hubs (both rail and telecom), and as a prestige center as the base of their power. Destroying it and retreating only destroys their power and credibility.
 
The Soviet trying to replicate the Barvenkovo offensive 6-7 months early by reinforcing forces in an exposed bulge might not be the smartest move on their part.

Kiev's liable to fall by the start of November at the latest even without AGC's diversion, the difference is how it falls: what probably happens is that the Southwestern Front gets levered out of the city and falls back to a new defense line a bit to the east and stops AGS there* instead of getting wiped out and giving AGS a free ride all the way to Rostov. It still leaves AGC in a early Typhoon onwith an egregiously exposed southern flank compared to OTL where they are even more overextended against a stronger Red Army.

*The way AGS's logistics bottleneck at the D'niepr in '41 really precludes them successfully breaking through a new Soviet defense line east of the D'niepr if the Southwestern Front isn't wiped out at Kiev like it was OTL.

They would probably think long and hard on making the tough decision to abandon Kiev given an successful AGC offensive in early September.

Or that too, but even a voluntary Soviet withdrawal from Kiev to a new defense line somewhat to the east still leaves AGC in a massive salient right at the moment they have even more fatally overextended themselves compared to OTL. And success is a relative thing, seeing as an early Typhoon may breakthrough Soviet lines and kill a bunch of Russians and capture territory but less so then OTL.

Exactly, the Soviet logistics and power projection ability was severely limited and would only be more so with Moscow falling in September.

Moscow falling in September isn't happening outside the delusions of the German general's. A Typhoon only 2/3rds as strong in terms as divisional count and around 1/9-10 as strong logistically speaking isn't going to even achieve as much as the OTL one before destructing on the Soviet defenses (which were also tougher at the start of September then it was at the end), much less more.

Their offensive abilities given OTL from that directiontoward AG-Center's flank while AG-South was pushing on their's was minimal

A judgement made to OTL August/September when they were still reeling from their previous retreats and then were wiped out. It completely ignores that during ITTL October/November/December they'll have been reorganized and even reinforced, while AGCs failing advance towards Moscow would leave them more overexposed and vulnerable then in August/September.

OTL, the Soviet winter counteroffensive came within a hairs-breadth of wiping out huge sections of AGC and achieving a tide-turning victory that OTL only occurred a year later. Had the Germans been even more overextended, exposed, or the Soviet assault stronger it would have happened. ITTL, all three of these things are true.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Kiev's liable to fall by the start of November at the latest even without AGC's diversion, the difference is how it falls: what probably happens is that the Southwestern Front gets levered out of the city and falls back to a new defense line a bit to the east and stops AGS there* instead of getting wiped out and giving AGS a free ride until Rostov. It still leaves AGC with an egregiously exposed southern flank in a TL where they are even more overextended against a stronger Red Army.

*The way AGS's logistics bottleneck at the D'niepr in '41 really precludes them successfully breaking through a new Soviet defense line east of the D'niepr if the Southwestern Front isn't wiped out at Kiev like it was OTL.

Or that too, but even a voluntary Soviet withdrawal from Kiev to a new defense line somewhat to the east leaves AGC in a massive salient right at the moment they have even more fatally overextended themselves compared to OTL. And success is a relative thing, seeing as an early Typhoon may breakthrough Soviet lines and kill a bunch of Russians and capture territory but less so then OTL.

There is little indication that the Soviet supply lines and in fact their lines of communication, plus political control over the army sans Moscow would allow them to take advantage of their positions south of AG-Center. AG-South would benefit from not having stretched supply lines far beyond the Dniepr, while remaining a threat that the Soviet forces opposite them couldn't simply ignore and turn north against against AG-Center, especially if they have shorter supply lines, while Soviet ones are longer than IOTL.

As AG-Center would be quite a bit stronger than they were in October, having not suffered the losses of August-September as per OTL, plus then being able to dictate offensive actions as they wished, like in October, they'd probably inflict much higher losses on the Soviets and suffer no more if not even less than IOTL. As it was in October they inflicted about 1 million casualties on the Soviets, a 20:1 loss rate (A Russian historian on another forum recently posted German casualty figures for the battle of Vyazma-Bryansk, which totaled about 50k casualties for the 2 week period of the pocket battles), while in August/September they'd be much stronger than they were without the losses they took on the defensive IOTL (or pushing toward Kiev and Leningrad), while Soviet forces would be just as inept on the defensive as per OTL. So instead of the Germans sitting tight in the center and getting hammered, like around Kiev and Leningrad they could dictate the terms of the offensive tempo and even with greater Soviet numbers opposite them given their lack of communications equipment and ability to response to offensive action IOTL, the Soviet forces on the Central axis would be pocketed as per OTL and wiped out, though it may well take longer, but Guderian wouldn't be in a position to abandon his pocket reducing responsibilities and advance on Moscow alone as per OTL in October. There wasn't much the Soviet forces on the Kiev axis could do to attack to stop him or push back 2nd army to disrupt AG-Center. The Soviets could try and pull in forces from the Leningrad and Kiev defenses to try and shore up Moscow in the aftermath of the pocket situation forming, but given how long it took to move forces from those flanks IOTL, plus the fact that there aren't new forces being formed east of Moscow yet as per OTL in October, there aren't reserves for the Soviets to counterattack with except on the flanks....assuming they could even get that off the ground.

Moscow falling in September exists more in the realm of the German general's fantasy then it does in reality. A Typhoon only 2/3rds as strong in terms as divisional count and nearly 1/10 as strong logistically speaking isn't going to even achieve as much as the OTL one before destructing on Soviet defenses, much less more.
That's the thing, the supplies and support used to attack Kiev and Leningrad IOTL, plus resist the Soviet offensives in August-September required a lot of logistics that could instead be used to support AG-Center. The issue though isn't simply divisional count, the divisions in question will also be a LOT stronger than IOTL, so their combat power would offset the lack of equivalent divisions. Yes 2nd army would be on flank support duty, but ALL of 4th Panzer Group could be used, so it's really more like 85% of OTL divisions are used and they are all stronger than IOTL because they don't suffer OTL losses pushing on Leningrad and Kiev, nor sitting and taking a beating in August-September against the Soviet assaults toward Smolensk. As it was IIRC Glantz says in those 2 months AG-Center took about 100k casualties, which will be available here to attack anyway.

A point:
Knowing Stalin,the fall of Moscow would't be an excuse to actually start a new wave of purges?
You mean continue and ramp them up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purge_of_the_Red_Army_in_1941#In_wartime
 
There is little indication that the Soviet supply lines and in fact their lines of communication, plus political control over the army sans Moscow would allow them to take advantage of their positions south of AG-Center. AG-South would benefit from not having stretched supply lines far beyond the Dniepr, while remaining a threat that the Soviet forces opposite them couldn't simply ignore and turn north against against AG-Center, especially if they have shorter supply lines, while Soviet ones are longer than IOTL.

As AG-South's ability to prosecute an offensive against a force the size and strength of the Southwestern Front falls away to almost nothing east of the D'niepr, the Southwestern Front could devote at least a significant minority of its forces for an offensive against AGC. Additionally, the Southwestern Front would likely be further reinforced by a number of the fresh armies the Soviets raised OTL during the course of August-December, further raising its offensive potential.

As AG-Center would be quite a bit stronger than they were in October, having not suffered the losses of August-September as per OTL, plus then being able to dictate offensive actions as they wished, like in October, they'd probably inflict much higher losses on the Soviets and suffer no more if not even less than IOTL. As it was in October they inflicted about 1 million casualties on the Soviets, a 20:1 loss rate (A Russian historian on another forum recently posted German casualty figures for the battle of Vyazma-Bryansk, which totaled about 50k casualties for the 2 week period of the pocket battles), while in August/September they'd be much stronger than they were without the losses they took on the defensive IOTL (or pushing toward Kiev and Leningrad), while Soviet forces would be just as inept on the defensive as per OTL. So instead of the Germans sitting tight in the center and getting hammered, like around Kiev and Leningrad they could dictate the terms of the offensive tempo and even with greater Soviet numbers opposite them given their lack of communications equipment and ability to response to offensive action IOTL, the Soviet forces on the Central axis would be pocketed as per OTL and wiped out, though it may well take longer, but Guderian wouldn't be in a position to abandon his pocket reducing responsibilities and advance on Moscow alone as per OTL in October. There wasn't much the Soviet forces on the Kiev axis could do to attack to stop him or push back 2nd army to disrupt AG-Center. The Soviets could try and pull in forces from the Leningrad and Kiev defenses to try and shore up Moscow in the aftermath of the pocket situation forming, but given how long it took to move forces from those flanks IOTL, plus the fact that there aren't new forces being formed east of Moscow yet as per OTL in October, there aren't reserves for the Soviets to counterattack with except on the flanks....assuming they could even get that off the ground.

AGC at the start of Typhoon possessed around 600,000 in men alone then it did at the start of September and at least had a stockpile, if an inadequate one, of supplies in its forward operating base instead of barely being able to keep itself covering daily needs in its static position. The supply situation alone cripples the Germans ability to dictate tempos as a tank without fuel isn't going anywhere, a gun without ammo isn't shooting anyone. What most likely happens is the Germans ability to form pockets is crippled as German panzer forces breakthrough Soviet lines only to immediately run out of fuel, letting the bulk of Soviet forces to fall back to a new defense line instead of being pocketed and destroyed. You'll even get a replication of what the raputitsa did to the already-impossible German supply situation ITTL anyways in mid-September when those rainstorms hit and turned the central region into a morass of mud. 2nd Army may have been enough to guard AGCs flank as it existed when AGC was just east of Smolensk, but the flank would be a true monster if AGC moves all the way to the outskirts of Moscow and require considerably more forces to even just picket, much less actually defend. Furthermore, the Soviets formed a number of reserve armies during August-September around which OTL got committed to shore up losses in the north and south but ITTL would be committed to shore up the center. The OTL forces raised in October-November that blocked the historical Typhoon would instead be used for the counteroffensive on AGC...

That's the thing, the supplies and support used to attack Kiev and Leningrad IOTL, plus resist the Soviet offensives in August-September required a lot of logistics that could instead be used to support AG-Center. The issue though isn't simply divisional count, the divisions in question will also be a LOT stronger than IOTL, so their combat poYes 2nd army would be on flank support duty, but ALL of 4th Panzer Group could be used, so it's really more like 85% of OTL divisions are used and they are all stronger than IOTL because they don't suffer OTL losses pushing on Leningrad and Kiev, nor sitting and taking a beating in August-September against the Soviet assaults toward Smolensk. As it was IIRC Glantz says in those 2 months AG-Center took about 100k casualties, which will be available here to attack anyway.

The supplies used to attack Kiev for AGS and Leningrad cannot be fitted on the available road and rail space available for AGC in August-September. Hell, the adequate quantity of supplies couldn't be fitted on the road and rail space for AGC to even make the OTL Typhoon even work and the effort to do so basically collapsed the German logistical tail. It doesn't matter that you have however much more weeks of supplies stacked ready if those supplies are lying in depots hundreds of kilometers behind you with no way to get them to you in time. Tossing 4th Panzer Army means an already inadequate supply situation gets even worse (even the historical commitment of the 3rd Panzer Army from AGS simply didn't work out in logistical terms). And your pretensions that the Germans would take fewer casualties is silly: in addition to the German assault being weaker, Soviet defenses in August-September were tougher, with multiple manned defensive belts crewed by trained reservists as opposed to the thinner line of militia that existed by the start of Typhoon.

Scholars such as Glantz and Stahel have examined the German situation as it actually existed in August-September in regards to proposals about an early-Typhoon. As usual with this sort of thing, these studies have found very real problems with executing these specific sort of courses of military action that would have made their perfect solutions to supposed military blunders impossible to execute successfully in practice. German proposals both at the time and afterward flat out ignored thse problems, just as they had ignored them before Barbarossa and would ignore them afterwards and this practice was taken up wholesale after the war by their supporters. It all goes back to the criminal deficiency towards end-means analysis where the Germans would select their goals and attempt to achieve them without making any real attempt to see if they had the means to achieve them.

In any case, the OP is asking about how a extended urban fight for Moscow would turn out, not about what would happen if the city fell. So your just not engaging with the OP for the sake of pontificating on Wehraboo-esque fantasies.

A point:
Knowing Stalin,the fall of Moscow would't be an excuse to actually start a new wave of purges?

I don't recall him purging anyone in response to Kiev falling...
 
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Deleted member 1487

As AG-South's ability to prosecute an offensive against a force the size and strength of the Southwestern Front falls away to almost nothing east of the D'niepr, the Southwestern Front could devote at least a significant minority of its forces for an offensive against AGC. Additionally, the Southwestern Front would likely be further reinforced by a number of the fresh armies the Soviets raised OTL during the course of August-December, further raising its offensive potential.
It won't be needed, even if 'significant forces' are made available, there is no indication that communications and supply would enable them to attack and do much against 2nd Army guarding the flank of AG-Center.

AGC at the start of Typhoon possessed around 600,000 in men alone then it did at the start of September and at least had a stockpile, if an inadequate one, of supplies in its forward operating base instead of barely being able to keep itself covering daily needs in its static position. The supply situation alone cripples the Germans ability to dictate tempos as a tank without fuel isn't going anywhere, a gun without ammo isn't shooting anyone. What most likely happens is the Germans ability to form pockets is crippled as German panzer forces breakthrough Soviet lines only to immediately run out of fuel, letting the bulk of Soviet forces to fall back to a new defense line instead of being pocketed and destroyed. You'll even get a replication of what the raputitsa did to the already-impossible German supply situation ITTL anyways in mid-September when those rainstorms hit and turned the central region into a morass of mud. 2nd Army may have been enough to guard AGCs flank as it existed when AGC was just east of Smolensk, but the flank would be a true monster if AGC moves all the way to the outskirts of Moscow and require considerably more forces to even just picket, much less actually defend. Furthermore, the Soviets formed a number of reserve armies during August-September around which OTL got committed to shore up losses in the north and south but ITTL would be committed to shore up the center. The OTL forces raised in October-November that blocked the historical Typhoon would instead be used for the counteroffensive on AGC...
Got some numbers of what was expended in August-September, what was stockpiled for October, and what estimated supplies on hand would be for September if they attacked east without moving on Kiev or Leningrad? Otherwise your fuel assertion really is nothing more than opinion. If the rains, which BTW impacted Guderian in his push south, but didn't stop him, do pause operations, it would be during the pocket battles, which were IOTL already impacted by heavy rains in the Vyzama-Bryansk area, but the Germans were able to advance anyway. I haven't seen evidence that the September rains were worse than the October ones, in fact considerably less bad, even if disruptive. But that won't stop the pocket battles, which will then prevent Soviet offensive actions in September and still result in the destruction of Soviet forces along the Moscow axis. Where are their replacements coming from? Soviet troops raised in September-December were not really combat effective, as OTL demonstrated, and mostly not assembled in front of Moscow; the later ones were east of Moscow, but the rest were around Leningrad or in the South. But again they weren't particularly useful for offensive action and fell apart on the defense. The units that held IOTL along the Moscow axis in October were pre-war formations finally arriving from the East, as they had been massively delayed due to loss of rolling stock and it's use evacuating industry. So if the Soviets do commit the nearly combat incapable reserve armies in any numbers in front of Moscow in September, they'd be more grist for the mill given their lack of nearly any heavy equipment and communications gear.

The supplies used to attack Kiev for AGS and Leningrad cannot be fitted on the available road and rail space available for AGC in August-September. Hell, the adequate quantity of supplies couldn't be fitted on the road and rail space for AGC to even make the OTL Typhoon even work and the effort to do so basically collapsed the German logistical tail. It doesn't matter that you have however much more weeks of supplies stacked ready if those supplies are lying in depots hundreds of kilometers behind you with no way to get them to you in time. Tossing 4th Panzer Army means an already inadequate supply situation gets even worse (even the historical commitment of the 3rd Panzer Army from AGS simply didn't work out in logistical terms). And your pretensions that the Germans would take fewer casualties is silly: in addition to the German assault being weaker, Soviet defenses in August-September were tougher, with multiple manned defensive belts crewed by trained reservists as opposed to the thinner line of militia that existed by the start of Typhoon.
Where do you think Guderian's supply lines were coming from? Not through AG-South, it was AG-Center's rail lines and roads that he was drawing supply from. 3rd Panzer Group mostly fought in the area around the north wing of AG-Center except for 1 Corps that was sent to aid the attack on Leningrad, so it too drew it's supplies from AG-Center's rail lines. As the proposed move on Moscow would have had to happen in September, that would mean 4th Panzer Group would work in conjunction in August initially attacking and pocketing Soviet armies at the seam of their two army groups, while dealing with Soviet offensive action against frontally. Guderian could in the meantime clean up his flank somewhat and expand the Yelnya bridgehead. They wouldn't be using any rail and roads that any other troops were using or a-historical supply lines. 4th Panzer Group in their move east in August would be attacking the Staraya Russa area and Soviet forces south of Lake Ilmen to secure the seam of the army groups, then would strike south, filling the role of 3rd Panzer Group historically in terms of position as of the attack on Moscow, while 3rd Panzer Group would be in the center of the front; 4th Panzer Army could pull supply from AG-North's supply lines, while taking with it the majority of their truck supply so it could continue pulling from their area to relieve the burden on the Smolensk rail line, while AG-North would be on the defensive and stationary in the Baltic and along the Luga river line, so not needing nearly as much truck supply or rail conversion assets once they set their stop line for the year in August. In fact without having to move south Guderian's force save a ton of wear and tear on their forces, a bunch of supplies, and rail conversion assets that were needed to follow them and keep them supplied, while without AG-North moving beyond the Luga, the same situation applies.

Stahel and Glantz aren't really the best at what ifs.

Scholars such as Glantz and Stahel have examined the German situation as it actually existed in August-September in regards to proposals about an early-Typhoon. As usual with this sort of thing, these studies have found very real problems with executing these specific sort of courses of military action that would have made their perfect solutions to supposed military blunders impossible to execute successfully in practice. German proposals both at the time and afterward flat out ignored thse problems, just as they had ignored them before Barbarossa and would ignore them afterwards and this practice was taken up wholesale after the war by their supporters. It all goes back to the criminal deficiency towards end-means analysis where the Germans would select their goals and attempt to achieve them without making any real attempt to see if they had the means to achieve them.
Depends how you look at the information. If you don't count the expenses of the flank moves on Kiev and Leningrad to AG-Center forces that had to relocate and still drew supplies mostly from AG-Center, while AG-Center itself was heavily engaged in combat for months with Soviet forces East of Smolensk, then I'm sure you can create a narrative that there wasn't enough supplies in place to have an offensive in September. The supplies were there, the supply lines they flowed in on were mostly AG-Center's and in any case for it's jump off point 4th Panzer Group would draw on AG-North's LoS at least initially, not AG-Center's.

In any case, the OP is asking about how a extended urban fight for Moscow would turn out, not about what would happen if the city fell. So your just not engaging with the OP for the sake of pontificating on Wehraboo-esque fantasies.
Considering part of that question is when and how that fight even happens, it is highly relevant to discuss whether it is the result of a Moscow offensive in August-September rather than October and having weather changes prevent the battle from even taking place. Also note I was responding to YOUR raising of the subject of an earlier push on Moscow, I didn't bring it up first. And talking about what ifs is now 'pontificating Wehraboo-fantasies'? Or is that only when they don't fit your Soviet-boo fantasies? ;)

I don't recall him purging anyone in response to Kiev falling...
Budyonny was replaced in mid-September, but then he was Stalin's buddy, so got a pass for multiple fuck-ups:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Budyonny#Later_military_career
By the time that happened his replacement could do nothing and Stalin had been warned about what was happening, so realized THAT was his fault. The fall of Moscow is altogether something different.
 
It won't be needed, even if 'significant forces' are made available, there is no indication that communications and supply would enable them to attack and do much against 2nd Army guarding the flank of AG-Center.

Assuming the Southwestern Front re-establishes it's defences on the Psel river line, the 2nd Army would be strung out around 300 kilometers, roughly . Assuming the Soviets deploy even a quarter of the armies they had in the south against them and half of those they used in the OTL December offensive, they'll be facing nearly 8 armies when the Soviets attack. As to supplies, there would be multiple railheads running north from out of Kharkov, where the biggest depots for Soviet forces facing AGS prior to October were, and the Southwestern Front would still dispose of the bulk of it's plus whatever reinforcements it receives from the STAVKA. Furthermore, the lack of need to evacuate or destroy the industrial regions in the south with AGS stalling out so far to the west means there is a lack of need to evacuate them, allowing significant industrial output during the course of the autumn (instead of the pretty much collapse which occurred OTL), giving Soviet forces down there a relative wealth of munitions, weapons, and vehicles. The lack of needing to evacuate also frees up a lot of rolling stock.

Got some numbers of what was expended in August-September, what was stockpiled for October, and what estimated supplies on hand would be for September if they attacked east without moving on Kiev or Leningrad? Otherwise your fuel assertion really is nothing more than opinion. If the rains, which BTW impacted Guderian in his push south, but didn't stop him, do pause operations, it would be during the pocket battles, which were IOTL already impacted by heavy rains in the Vyzama-Bryansk area, but the Germans were able to advance anyway. I haven't seen evidence that the September rains were worse than the October ones, in fact considerably less bad, even if disruptive. But that won't stop the pocket battles, which will then prevent Soviet offensive actions in September and still result in the destruction of Soviet forces along the Moscow axis. Where are their replacements coming from? Soviet troops raised in September-December were not really combat effective, as OTL demonstrated, and mostly not assembled in front of Moscow; the later ones were east of Moscow, but the rest were around Leningrad or in the South. But again they weren't particularly useful for offensive action and fell apart on the defense. The units that held IOTL along the Moscow axis in October were pre-war formations finally arriving from the East, as they had been massively delayed due to loss of rolling stock and it's use evacuating industry. So if the Soviets do commit the nearly combat incapable reserve armies in any numbers in front of Moscow in September, they'd be more grist for the mill given their lack of nearly any heavy equipment and communications gear.

There were innumerable reports of fuel shortages in late-August. For example, on August 20th, XXIV Panzer Corps informed Guderian that it was unable to capture Novzybkov for lack of fuel. When pressed, the corps reported that 3rd panzer division was almost out completely, 10th motorized division was having to abandon a number of trucks, and 4th Panzer had only two days worth. The main difficulty, as I said, was getting things forward: AGC needed a minimum of 24 trains a day in order just to cover day to day operations and was getting an average of 18. It wasn't until late-September that even partial stockpiling in the forward depots could be conducted and these partial stockpiles were what the historical Typhoon partly ran*, and ultimately failed, on. Everything else was done hand-to-mouth, which worked out for lateral movements which didn't increase the distance from railheads remotely as much as a direct move eastward would have. Given this context, the supplies dispatched on the Leningrad and Kiev axis would have simply sat around in the main dumps just west of the Soviet-German border had they tried to be sent down to AGC. The German advance would be radically slowed by the fuel difficulties as they outrun their supply lines a full month ahead of time and what encirclements would be achieved would net much fewer Soviet soldiers, with the bulk able to fall back to the next defensive line and join with the forces there. You are correct that the rains merely slowed Guderian, as by the time they occurred Guderian was facing little resistance in his immediate path. And the Soviet replacements are easy to find: the Soviets had formed 13 armies in July and another 14 in August. Of these armies, 11 were deployed along the Moscow axis in multiple defensive belts stretching as far back as Kalinin and Tula. A 12th army was formed extremely deep, north of Stalingrad, and could conceivably have been railed anywhere. A 13th army formed between Belogrod and Kursk could conceivably have been moved northward with little difficulty. And the lone army formed in September was also formed in the STAVKA reserve and could have wound up anywhere, although OTL it wound up in the Volkhov Front in November for some reason. And on top of all of it, the Germans would lack a immense number of soft advantages they accrued from the extensive September pause, like the detailed reconnaissance of Soviet front line positions they garnered.

I see you also repeat the myth of pre-war formations Far Eastern formations holding the Germans along the Moscow axis. In reality, of the 14 divisions sent in the autumn, only 8 were assigned to the Western and Kalinin Fronts, which took part in the battle of Moscow. This out of something between 100-200 divisions that participated in the Battle of Moscow and it's easy to see that the bulk of the forces which halted the Germans in the end did not come from the Far East nor the pre-war.

*I say "partly" because they lasted less then a week, then it was back to hand-to-mouth.

Where do you think Guderian's supply lines were coming from? 3rd Panzer Group mostly fought in the area around the north wing of AG-Center except for 1 Corps that was sent to aid the attack on Leningrad, so it too drew it's supplies from AG-Center's rail lines. As the proposed move on Moscow would have had to happen in September, that would mean 4th Panzer Group would work in conjunction in August initially attacking and pocketing Soviet armies at the seam of their two army groups, while dealing with Soviet offensive action against frontally. Guderian could in the meantime clean up his flank somewhat and expand the Yelnya bridgehead. They wouldn't be using any rail and roads that any other troops were using or a-historical supply lines. 4th Panzer Group in their move east in August would be attacking the Staraya Russa area and Soviet forces south of Lake Ilmen to secure the seam of the army groups, then would strike south, filling the role of 3rd Panzer Group historically in terms of position as of the attack on Moscow, while 3rd Panzer Group would be in the center of the front; 4th Panzer Army could pull supply from AG-North's supply lines, while taking with it the majority of their truck supply so it could continue pulling from their area to relieve the burden on the Smolensk rail line, while AG-North would be on the defensive and stationary in the Baltic and along the Luga river line, so not needing nearly as much truck supply or rail conversion assets once they set their stop line for the year in August.

Initially a rail line coming off the Minsk-Orsha route. Even then, the whole advance was committed hand-to-mouth and encountered only a fraction of the resistance compared to what an advance toward Moscow would have entailed, which alleviated much of the demand. And even then it still, by Guderian's own admission, proved to be a close-run thing. In the end though, he indeed was able to draw off AGS when he had linked up with them. Guderian proved unable to clean-up his own flanks at the Yel'niya bridgehead for a solid month and his supply situation only improved when he pulled his forces back from the front for the transfer down to Gomel for the Kiev operation, which allowed his forces to restock enough to breakthrough the thin Soviet lines in that direction. As the Germans, by your own admission, would not be using any other road networks then what they used OTL and what they used OTL was inadequate to support continued offensives in late-August/early-September, it's pretty much going to result in a insta-logjam.

In the end, the forces AGC dispatched to other fronts, Guderian included, constituted but a fraction of the entire Army Group and by extension demanded a fraction of the resources that moving the whole thing would have required. It says everything that the greater part of the whole had to sit immobilized while all the flank battles were happening, which was a godsend for them as it gave them an opportunity to rest and refit.

Stahel and Glantz aren't really the best at what ifs.

Nah, they're great. You just don't like what the implications of their assessments mean for the result of the what ifs (even more catastrophic German defeat) so you claim their not great at it.

Depends how you look at the information. If you don't count the expenses of the flank moves on Kiev and Leningrad to AG-Center forces that had to relocate and still drew supplies mostly from AG-Center, while AG-Center itself was heavily engaged in combat for months with Soviet forces East of Smolensk, then I'm sure you can create a narrative that there wasn't enough supplies in place to have an offensive in September. The supplies were there, the supply lines they flowed in on were mostly AG-Center's and in any case for it's jump off point 4th Panzer Group would draw on AG-North's LoS at least initially, not AG-Center's.

The flank moves only used a fraction of AGC's forces, were much less demanding, and the rest of AGC's front was quiet for the majority of September. Additionally I should observe that the idea that the Germans could not take Moscow in 1941 in the face of the combination of Soviet resistance and German logistical difficulties is not just that of modern scholars, but also that of the German quartermaster staff before and during Barbarossa. To assert that the Germans could take Moscow in 1941 given their logistical difficulties and Soviet resistance, you are therefore not only flying in the face of current scholarship but in the face of the exact people. In this, you are very much following in the footsteps of the German generals at the time, who at best rationalized their quartermasters concerns away and at worst ignored them. I have remarked many a times in the past that you belong in OKH for a number of reasons, here is another one.

Considering part of that question is when and how that fight even happens, it is highly relevant to discuss whether it is the result of a Moscow offensive in August-September rather than October and having weather changes prevent the battle from even taking place. Also note I was responding to YOUR raising of the subject of an earlier push on Moscow, I didn't bring it up first. And talking about what ifs is now 'pontificating Wehraboo-fantasies'? Or is that only when they don't fit your Soviet-boo fantasies? ;)

Talking about the end result of a early Typhoon that bogs down in urban fighting in western Moscow in October or November, which is liable to be the best case of a early-Typhoon, is very much in the spirit of the OP. If you want to talk about a early-Typhoon which actually takes Moscow somehow, probably by inducing a improbable but still possible panic among the leadership in Moscow, then start your own thread.

Budyonny was replaced in mid-September, but then he was Stalin's buddy, so got a pass for multiple fuck-ups:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Budyonny#Later_military_career
By the time that happened his replacement could do nothing and Stalin had been warned about what was happening, so realized THAT was his fault. The fall of Moscow is altogether something different.

I'm still seeing no evidence of any purges that were initiated by any of the innumerable disasters suffered after July. Or in mid-'42 when the Soviets suffered a further string of disasters that at time rivalled that . While I agree that Moscow is altogether something different, Stalin would probably be the one most to blame if it fell (since it would pretty much require him panicking and flat out ordering the city abandoned) and would have his hands full holding together the country in the aftermath so I'm having a hard time seeing him kick off another.
 
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