Return of the Behemoths

Well, as the OP mentions airships were used in the ASW role by the United States during World War II, to the tune of around 150 aircraft and a few thousand personnel.
But those were blimps, not proper airships. They were a tenth of the size with no internal structure, just a bag of gas with a wingless aeroplane hung underneath. Blimps don't give me special feelings. Also note the tremendous armament carried by the K class - less than a swordfish or equivalent. No idea what the cost but must have been significantly cheaper than a big rigid - one prototype is quoted at $300K but production units would be less.
That's absolutely crazy! Thanks
Now imagine trying it not on a nice day by the coast but on a gray rainy windy day while the pilot is wet and cold and tired after several hours patrolling, running low on fuel, a thousand kilometers away from any alternative landing spot, knowing that if he messes up really badly the whole airship and everyone on it will go down. No pressure or anything.
 
But those were blimps, not proper airships. They were a tenth of the size with no internal structure, just a bag of gas with a wingless aeroplane hung underneath. Blimps don't give me special feelings. Also note the tremendous armament carried by the K class - less than a swordfish or equivalent. No idea what the cost but must have been significantly cheaper than a big rigid - one prototype is quoted at $300K but production units would be less.

Now imagine trying it not on a nice day by the coast but on a gray rainy windy day while the pilot is wet and cold and tired after several hours patrolling, running low on fuel, a thousand kilometers away from any alternative landing spot, knowing that if he messes up really badly the whole airship and everyone on it will go down. No pressure or anything.

Exactly yes. I wonder (without going too Battlestar Galactica here) whether it would have been possible to put a hangar running along the underside of the airship. Planes could approach from the stern and land conventially
 

marathag

Banned
That's absolutely crazy! Thanks
How about landing and takeoff from a cable?
je0817g.jpg
 
Uh, IIRC, UK's long-wave, land-based radar required several very tall masts per 'Chain' station, trailing very long antennae, plus a shed-load of tech. Marine radar took a ton of 'black boxes' and a ship to power them. Beyond some night-fighter stuff with antennae spread along the wings, practicable airborne radar required the short-wave magnetron...
A large dirigible can conceivably support a much larger setup than a night-fighter, perhaps enough to make it useful even early in the war, and certainly better than any fighter-based system later in the war. The Germans were still launching attacks on England with bombers quite late, after all, so even if it only becomes available in 1943 or 1944 it might still be useful.

Also, remembering the 'Balloon Busters' of WW1, there'd be an automatic 'Iron Cross' for any pilot who downed one. A dirigible can't run, can't hide. A simple DF set-up would allow tracking, making such a *juicy* 'target of opportunity'...
I also remember why Ballon Busting was so highly regarded: the balloons were extremely heavily defended and attacking one was very dangerous. Yes, the dirigible can't run (fast: it can fly maybe a hundred miles per hour, so if it spots the attackers far enough away...), but it's sure to have a swarm of fighters around it just waiting for some German to try attacking it. Or AA on the ground, also primed to start shooting if anything starts coming close. Or both.

Of course, it could also be located somewhere relatively far-ish north where it's very difficult for German fighters to reach it, anyhow, though that might negate some of the advantage.
 
But those were blimps, not proper airships. They were a tenth of the size with no internal structure, just a bag of gas with a wingless aeroplane hung underneath. Blimps don't give me special feelings. Also note the tremendous armament carried by the K class - less than a swordfish or equivalent.
Well, sure, but it's not like you need a ton of armament for anti-submarine work.

Besides, the point was that there was a plausible military use for airships in World War II, and they were used for that role. A blimp, regardless of what you think about them, is still an airship, and a rigid airship could have been used in that role as well, perhaps more and perhaps less effectively.
 
Well, sure, but it's not like you need a ton of armament for anti-submarine work.
Would be nice if you had enough to ever actually sink a sub, though. Observation and warning are nice, but aircraft can do all that and attack as well.
Besides, the point was that there was a plausible military use for airships in World War II, and they were used for that role. A blimp, regardless of what you think about them, is still an airship, and a rigid airship could have been used in that role as well, perhaps more and perhaps less effectively.
Oh, I agree that they are airships, and they did plausible military work. However I've always suspected that the sequence went like:
-Moffatt loved LTA aviation
-Therefore the USN had lots of blimps
-ASW and scouting looked like the only thing they could be useful for
-Therefore ASW patrols by blimps, alongside the B-18s and all sorts of other odds and sods.

If you were to sit down in say 1939 and go "I need something with a range of about 2200 miles for high-priority patrols against subs and possibly surface raiders" what would be your best choice, a blimp or a B-17, Stirling, etc? Unless you happen to have a whole blimp organization sitting around looking for a job, I can't see why you would ever choose them. And for rigid airships it's even worse since you would have to create the entire organization from scratch.
 
The advantage the UK should have is that they can get helium for their airships from the USA. In WWI the Zeppelins began to be in trouble when you had aircraft that could get to their altitude and incendiary machine gun ammunition that would bring them down by setting the hydrogen lifting gas on fire. Simply punching holes in the gas cells, which can be patched by the crew, won't bring an airship down or at least not very rapidly. In any case the Germans never had fighter aircraft operating west of Ireland, or anyplace in the South Atlantic. radar for the airships would be an issue, although doable. You could have the airships being refueled and reprovisioned (food/ammo) in midocean dropping a hoe to a tanker/line to stores ship. This would require good weather but certainly technically doable.

The problem, IMHO, with this is that you need to build some of these and practice all of the evolutions well in advance of 1939. Because these aircraft will be older types/designs (biplanes work just fine for this) that bit is taken care of. If you start up this program with the Munich crisis in 1938, when will you have enough of these "ASW airships" on line to make a difference? I expect they won't be out there hunting subs/protecting convoys much before long range conventional aircraft are available so...
 
"That's the one! Imagine the Bismarck seeing that approaching..."

What's the maximum elevation of the Bismarck's big guns ? Knowing they *might* be facing combat airships, there may be some 'flechette' ammunition aboard...
 

Driftless

Donor
One of the most effective ASW roles in WW1 & 2, was the ability to keep the subs underwater and out of attack positioon. Blimps, and planes off escort carriers did that well, as they had loiter time that shore based planes couldn't match.
 
Would be nice if you had enough to ever actually sink a sub, though. Observation and warning are nice, but aircraft can do all that and attack as well.
Sinking submarines is just a bonus. The really important thing to do is to keep them from attacking, which blimps are quite effective at.

Oh, I agree that they are airships, and they did plausible military work. However I've always suspected that the sequence went like:
-Moffatt loved LTA aviation
-Therefore the USN had lots of blimps
-ASW and scouting looked like the only thing they could be useful for
-Therefore ASW patrols by blimps, alongside the B-18s and all sorts of other odds and sods.

If you were to sit down in say 1939 and go "I need something with a range of about 2200 miles for high-priority patrols against subs and possibly surface raiders" what would be your best choice, a blimp or a B-17, Stirling, etc? Unless you happen to have a whole blimp organization sitting around looking for a job, I can't see why you would ever choose them. And for rigid airships it's even worse since you would have to create the entire organization from scratch.
Well...I can see why you would choose airships, actually:
  1. The POD is long before 1939, say 1929 or 1919. In that case, the competition is between airships and...well, nothing. Seaplanes, I guess. There weren't long range aircraft of the B-17/Stirling type at that time, so airships are your only real option for long-range/long-endurance aircraft. If you take the submarine threat seriously and decide to heavily invest in aircraft at that time, you're probably going to be building airships for that reason.
  2. It's a compromise between Bomber Command and Coastal Command (or the equivalent). B-17s/Stirlings/etc. can be used to bomb Germany, so the parts of the Air Force that want to bomb Germany will want all of those aircraft, rather than leaving some off for anti-submarine work. To the extent that airships don't (necessarily) use the same resources as heavy bombers, procuring those instead of heavy bombers for the latter role could help soothe those tensions and help both sections get more adequate resources.
On the whole, I feel the first point is more reasonable, but the second one isn't totally crazy, at least so far as I know.
 
The main issue is that North Atlantic weather is pretty god awful, and Zeppelin best ennemy...

This. R-101, AKRON and SHENANDOAH were all lost in severe storms. Granted experience and new building techniques would improve things but still, dirigibles are vulnerable to extreme weather.

But given the U-Boat menace in 1942-early 1943 they would have proved useful, vulnerable or not...
 
Sinking submarines is just a bonus. The really important thing to do is to keep them from attacking, which blimps are quite effective at.
This is a completely circular argument. Aircraft can keep submarines submerged just as effectively as blimps, and can do many things blimps can't. Such as bombing, carry cargo, training, etc. etc. OTL the aircraft that really closed the gap were ordinary B-24 bombers with a few extra fuel tanks and some bits of specialist equipment. It's a lot easier to build and support a handful of extra bombers than a whole specialist branch with basically zero overlap.
Well...I can see why you would choose airships, actually:
  1. The POD is long before 1939, say 1929 or 1919. In that case, the competition is between airships and...well, nothing. Seaplanes, I guess. There weren't long range aircraft of the B-17/Stirling type at that time, so airships are your only real option for long-range/long-endurance aircraft. If you take the submarine threat seriously and decide to heavily invest in aircraft at that time, you're probably going to be building airships for that reason.
  2. It's a compromise between Bomber Command and Coastal Command (or the equivalent). B-17s/Stirlings/etc. can be used to bomb Germany, so the parts of the Air Force that want to bomb Germany will want all of those aircraft, rather than leaving some off for anti-submarine work. To the extent that airships don't (necessarily) use the same resources as heavy bombers, procuring those instead of heavy bombers for the latter role could help soothe those tensions and help both sections get more adequate resources.
On the whole, I feel the first point is more reasonable, but the second one isn't totally crazy, at least so far as I know.
Your first point is exactly what I was saying earlier. Moffat loved anything that floated in air, so the US navy ended up with a bunch of expensive toys that could do a poor job of ASW patrols and nothing else, hence half a million hours of blimp ASW patrols and by some estimates 10,000 people tied up 'keeping subs submerged' with zero possibility of damaging them, when they could have been keeping them submerged with at least some small chance of damaging them.

Your second point is to be honest nonsensical. USN blimps used radial Pratt & Whitney engines, the same radars, MAD and sonobuoys you would fit to aircraft, enough aluminum to build a gondola holding 10 crew, and the same skilled navigators and mechanics etc you would want in carrier aviation or bomber/fighter squadrons. No matter how you dress it up the blimp program is directly robbing resources needed by the Air Force, fleet air arm (and even heavier-than-air ASW patrol!) and someone high up is going to have to slice the pie and decide who gets what.
"You lose 5 bomber squadrons so they can build and operate some rather ineffective blimps" is in no shape fashion or form better than "you lose 5 bomber squadrons so they can use them to effectively prosecute ASW and convoy protection" and its positively criminal if it becomes "we can only get 5 ASV radars and 2 MAD per month and they are going on the blimps, the bombers can use the Mk1 eyeball".

Just for a comparative statistic of uselessness, in the bay of biscay in 1943 about 5500 hours were flown per month, with roughly 60 sightings, 30 attacks and a bit under one sinking per month. So if "good" looks like one sinking per ~6,000 hours on patrol, what do we make of those hundreds of thousands of hours with nothing to show for it? Unless we heroically delude ourselves that subs were far more likely to stay submerged under blimps that were a hundred times less dangerous to them than conventional aircraft, we can only conclude they were a wasteful diversion of effort. I have certainly never seen any evidence that U-boat crews had any special fear or awareness of blimps.
 
Evidence post-war revealed that Blimp K-74 damaged U-134 and averted an attack on two merchantmen, contrary to standing orders.
What evidence was there of any damage? I know the sub was sunk by the brits later on in that same patrol. I'm not aware of primary evidence that the blimp did more than put them off their stroke. If we believe the dreaded 'pedia, 100rds of .50 and two non-released depth charges which doesn't seem especially effective.

Checking U-boat.net we see no mention of blimp damage and that same boat was:
  • Depth charged by a USN flying boat 8 July
  • Depth charged and seriously damaged by a Ventura 18 July
  • Attacked by carrier aircraft 21 aug
  • Three days later was sunk by a Frigate
It says a lot to me that this boat was attacked three times in less than two months by aircraft which damaged it badly once, and no one thinks it in any way worth mentioning. Yet a blimp attacks it doing as far as I can tell no damage whatever and getting shot down in the process, and this is held up as the shining example of blimp effectiveness on every blimp-related webpage.

"Averted an attack on two merchantmen" - now there's a ringing quote for the ages, up there with Churchills finest. A score probably surpassed by the Tiger Moth.
 
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