Kaiserreich a TL

[Michel Van]

This a TL were German Empire win World War I and how it evolve in coming years
But before i start to write it here, i want to make here preliminary studies to get the bugs outs.
I hope this Synopsis is usable base for this TL or what you think ?


Synopsis:

With Pod in 1917 get Germany chance to win, but it's a Pyrrhic victory
in east they can only create Free Poland and Kurland, but Russian get under control of bolsheviks.
in West they gain Belgium & Luxemburg and defeat France
But remain in a Cold war between British Empire and USA (both have there Problems)
To make matter worst the German Allies Austria-hungary and Ottoman Empire collapse
During WW1 dies certain Hitler, Göring and Hess

The Germans parts of former Austria-hungary get incorporated into German Empire
Belgium move little bit to west and get Federalized, while province of Liege become part of Prussia
Luxemburg is now part of Empire.
On colonies Germany lost allot, but gain new one from France and Belgium
And are able to form a Mini "Mittleaftika" and a new Pacific colony.
new nation in East Europe and in Middle east

1920s-1930s
There will be a world economic crisis like OTL
France becomes a anti-Semitic Communist state, allot of Jews fled to Belgium or German Empire
like Marcel Bloch (OTL Marcel Dassault)
in USSR Leo Trotsky become leader, because Stalin died during Russian Civil war
The French and Soviets make secret arrangement for rearmament for attacking The German Empire
Spanish Civil war who rise the tension between Europeans states and USSR
what end in German support victory for the Royalist junta under General Emilio Mola.
in Europe face rise of Communist (revolution export by Trotsky)
National China formed, with close ties to German Empire as Allies
LZ129 Hindenburg Disaster, German Navy abandon the Airship in favor of Airplane
normalization of relations between Germany, USA and Britain

1940s
1941 - WW2 start during funeral of Emperor Wilhelm II
France and USSR attack German Empire
While Japan attack Pearl harbor and conquer Asia and part Pacific (Some german Colonies)
USA, Britain, China and Germany become allies (the Enemy of my enemies is my friend).
introduction of new technology like Jetplane and Atomic bomb (Germany) and Rocket (France)
After heavy fighting the Germans can push French out west Germany and Belgium
And Soviets out of Poland, German Army marching into USSR and France
1946 - Germany manage to gain there objectives, by dropping series of atomic bombs.
Empire of Japan, People Republic France and Soviet Union surrender or are destroy.
USA and Britain are shocked by the brutality of German use of Atomic power
National China consolidated under Chiang Kai-shek
new nations of Ukraine, Baltic states and Russian.

1950s-1960s
Morgentau Plan for de militarization and de industrialization of France and west Russia
Second Cold war USA and Britain form a alliance against German Empire
1949 USA-Britain alliance test there atomic bomb
R&D race for best Bomber, best jet-fighter, best ICBM, let to Space Race
Werner Von Braun developed out french rocket hardware the First German ICBM
later moon rocket label Saturn used in Moon race.
German "quantum leap" in technology like Computers and consumer electronics

1970s-1980s
Social changes in German Empire.
Economic crisis
French extremist start War of Terror against German Empire
Cold War get more intense as USA-Britan try to keep up with German High tech.
Uprise in colonies and decolonization.

1990s-2010s
End of Cold War, Happy end or new conflicts ?

 

[Faeelin]

Antisemitic and communist?

 

[longsword14]

Antisemitic and communist?

Communists get a well deserved squashing under paramilitary boots? That is more likely and also closer to OTL.
Antisemitism by itself is not deal-breaker.

 

[Nivek]

Antisemitic and communist?

Not much different that soviets otl(Lenin was not nice, Stalin even less, the whole jewish oblast was a stunt) so is not that weird

 

[Faeelin]

Communists get a well deserved squashing under paramilitary boots? That is more likely and also closer to OTL.
Antisemitism by itself is not deal-breaker.

It's just awfully convenient, because the left was far less anti Semitic than the right.

 

[longsword14]

It's just awfully convenient, because the left was far less anti Semitic than the right.

Anti semitism is not much of a factor in politics, left or right, unless it all goes down the drain. Otherwise riots here and there and casual discrimination remains the norm, so nothing special.

 

[Faeelin]

Anti semitism is not much of a factor in politics, left or right, unless it all goes down the drain. Otherwise riots here and there and casual discrimination remains the norm, so nothing special.

Is this really true? Certainly Jews in Europe associated the right, not the left, with antisemitism.

 

[longsword14]

Is this really true? Certainly Jews in Europe associated the right, not the left, with antisemitism.

Not what I meant. Anti semitism on its own is not a key factor, it is a fringe one. So it does not really matter.

 

[Cregan]

An anti-Semitic France would not form an alliance with a Trotskyist USSR.

Also the French Left was not anti-Semitic, the French Right was heavily so.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

While Japan attack Pearl harbor and conquer Asia and part Pacific (Some german Colonies)

Why would Germany still have these colonies? They got taken in 1914 and Japan isn't just going to give them back because "events in Europe"

- BNC

 

[Nivek]

Why would Germany still have these colonies? They got taken in 1914 and Japan isn't just going to give them back because "events in Europe"

- BNC

Colonies they might get from the french(indochina and others) but yeah their pre ww1 are done and they might not waste their times when more valuable one(french ones) are avaiable.

 

[NHBL]

One timeline I did for a role playing game (D20 Modern in the 1920's) had a German voctory in Europe. Japan refused to return the German colonies, Germany refused to accept that outcome, so there's peace everywhere (for now...) but Germany and Japan have no treaty, only an armistice. That is an idea for you to pla with. (Germany's "Battleship 1919" was built with fitting through the Panama Canal a design requirement, as well as Pacific level fuel supplies...)

 

[Michel Van]

To point some thing out
THERE WILL NO HOLOCAUST IN THIS TL !

There were in this forum several discussion about France in case Germany wins WW1
and always the french members point out that a fascist France is very unrealistic
On anti-Semitic let face it France had in that a rich history, see Dreyfus Affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair
Here the French get there own "Stab in back legend" analog like the Germans had after WW1
But that don't mean the french communist Government endorse it.
Sorry the synopsis was bit too vague here

On German Colonies
During WW1 they loose: German West Africa, German New Guinea, German South West Africa
But keep German East Africa thanks to General Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck
after the WW1 with there version of Treaty of versailles the German Empire regain
Parts of German West Africa under control of France, halve of French Equatorial Africa also Madagascar
Together with Belgium Congo it forme new German Middle Afrika
While the British keep under there custody German West Africa (Togo), German New Guinea, German South West Africa
German Empire, Britain and USA manage a armistice during Treaty of versailles, But not Peace agreement

In Pacific the Germans annex every thing the French had (and other french islands or ports for there Military Fleet)
but fail gain control over Indochina, there Japanese Empire use power vacuum and occupy Indochina, before Germany embarks troops.

but Germans make Mistake in Treaty of versailles, not demolish the entire French colonial Empire, what will play a role in WW2 in this TL.

My Next post will deal with my bigger problems in the TL, How can Germany win WW1 without ABS scenario ?

 

[Riain]

How can Germany win WW1 without ABS scenario

That shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[Michel Van]

That shouldn't be too difficult.

Ok let try it!

My main POD is the disastrous Nivelle Offensive 16 April – 9 May 1917
here french General Nivelle promised a decisive war-ending victory over the Germans in 48 hours.
18 days later the Entente had 352,183 soldiers dead and 20,780 got prisoners of German Army
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nivelle_Offensive

This let to the French Army mutinies
They refuse any offensive operation and only defend them self against Germans attacks
Here General Neville try to quash the mutiny by executing french soldiers and Officers at random
(see Kubrick "Paths of Glory" it give you a good Impression of French solders endure during 1917)
French Government dismiss General Neville from the frontline toward an post in Algerian desert and General Pétain took over.
But General Pétain get assassinate by a french dispatch rider who has enough of 4 years of War and it's senseless carnage.
while General "The Butcher" Charles Mangin is shot in back by own soldiers, in fear he become successor of Pétain
So General Foch become the new commander-of-chief only get refusal to obey orders by French Soldiers, because his reputation for risky offensive strategy.
To make matter worst there also rebellion in Russian troops and the Irish in BEF at the west front.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Army_Mutinies

This can use the German Army for there advantage
but i need germans troops from East front, so how get a Peace or armistice with Russia in beginn of 1917 ?
one option would A Rasputin alive, while the Zar died on frontline
The other is that Russian Revolution not let to Kerensky Government

Some other POD usable for TL ?

-the Gallipoli Campaign ending in disaster as evacuation of British forces end in far higher Casualties. would this favor the 1917 POD in any way ?

-The Irish Easter Rising of 1916, happen in April 1917 and is better organize and let to Irland independence war, So that British empire has to send troops needed for West front.

-Also another uprise in Indian Realistic ?

 

[Riain]

If you want the Nivelle Offensive/French Mutiny to be the big pivot you will probably want to trace a PoD back a bit further to justify the different action taken there, the earlier the better even if very tenuous and subtle.

 

[Michel Van]

If you want the Nivelle Offensive/French Mutiny to be the big pivot you will probably want to trace a PoD back a bit further to justify the different action taken there, the earlier the better even if very tenuous and subtle.

good point, but were ?

General Neville and General Charles "The Butcher" Mangin have not care about there soldiers, they wanted there objective reach, never minding the number of Casualties !
one of them should have quoted "Our men died wonderfully" but this from Movie "Path of Glory" again it based on Nivelle Offensive disaster.
A option is that General Neville push further and rise the Casualties numbers, here on french side died 118,000–187,000 soldiers, compare to 156,000–162,000 in Battle of Verdun. (sorry the Generals never interested in exact number of Casualties)
According some controversial sources was Nivelle Offensive more deadlier as the Battle of Verdun for French Army

A Scene from Path of Glory show the Horror french Soldiers endure under such Offensive Action.

 

[Faeelin]

This a TL were German Empire win World War I and how it evolve in coming years
But before i start to write it here, i want to make here preliminary studies to get the bugs outs.
I hope this Synopsis is usable base for this TL or what you think ?

Some other thoughts.

in USSR Leo Trotsky become leader, because Stalin died during Russian Civil war
The French and Soviets make secret arrangement for rearmament for attacking The German Empire

The Russian Civil War went off the same as OTL? Did the Germans try to intervene to prop up the Whites, as Ludendorff watned to do?

Spanish Civil war who rise the tension between Europeans states and USSR

what end in German support victory for the Royalist junta under General Emilio Mola.

This seems fine, but this doesn't seem that terrifying. I would actually move the civil war to a tottering Austrian Empire, held together by a German-backed army.


Regarding China... I think you could have German ties to the nationalists, but this was a recent development under Chiang, and in part because he couldn't get the aid they wanted from the West. Which ties into one of my observations: this is a very passive TL. Britain and America just sort of saunter offstage as Germany builds up this massive Empire.

 

[Riain]

good point, but were

I'm not an expert on this part of the war, but you're going to have to become one to find a way to get the French Generals to behave in the way you want them to.

 

[Michel Van]

The Russian Civil War went off the same as OTL? Did the Germans try to intervene to prop up the Whites, as Ludendorff watned to do?

Quite like OTL but Germany, British empire (they got uprise in Irland) are quite exhausted from War and need time to recover, neither by French they have far more problems
Only exception Russian civil war is the dead of Joseph Stalin at Volgograd the city will be renamed after a Soviet General

Regarding China... I think you could have German ties to the nationalists, but this was a recent development under Chiang, and in part because he couldn't get the aid they wanted from the West. Which ties into one of my observations: this is a very passive TL. Britain and America just sort of saunter offstage as Germany builds up this massive Empire.

Chiang Kai-shek goes to Prussia Berlin, instead to Japan for his Military education, In this TL he speaks very well german.

I'm not an expert on this part of the war, but you're going to have to become one to find a way to get the French Generals to behave in the way you want them to.

General Neville is perfect candidate for that