The Map Thread for Turtledove's Great War/Southern Victory series
- Thread starter Thande
- Start date
This thread dies Ages Ago, but here's a UCS version of an Entnte Victory Map in the Great War.
Why did Colombia lose Panama and why did Brazil lose territory (Brazil only joined the Great War when Allied victory was all but secured)?
Other than that, good map.
With columbia, sorry about that, with Brazil, assumign the that CP had conned Brazil into joining anyway, argentina would probably annex the areas annexed on the map.
Nice job, Thande. I have a map i'm going to upload here momentarily that speaks to the 21st century status of North America.
North America in 2014 - The Four Republics
The attached map represents my thoughts on a modern day 21st century North America after the United States victory in the Second Great War (WWII).
The major departure from previous maps is that I’ve assumed that the United States has granted independence to Cuba as well as the former Mexican provinces of Sonora, Chihuahua, and both Baja California North and South. The latter 4 Mexican states were combined into a new country under American domination; The Republic of Arizona.
This action would serve the USA’s interests in several ways which I shall articulate below:
These territories were not part of the original USA in 1860 and if the history of the late 19th/ early 20th century taught American politicians anything, it is that diversity leads to disputes and rebellion (see Utah, Congaree Socialist Republic, Black Belt Republic, Canadian uprisings, etc). The conservative Dewey Administration would likely take steps to prevent future uprisings through the (mostly) non-violent deportation of ethnic and religious minority groups. And while both Socialist/ Democrat administrations toyed with the idea of exiling the Mormon population to the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) this is simply not very feasible due to distance. A much more expedient, plausible, and cost effective scenario would be to expel the Mormons south and give them their own state outside of the USA.
Granting the former Mexican provinces their ‘independence’ would also give the USA a convenient spot to deport other undesirable/ potential troublemakers such as the Native American population of Sequoyah (renamed Oklahoma to further break Indian identity), as well as any Confederate POW/ sympathizer who refused to sign a pledge of allegiance to the United States.
The Dewey Administration would realize that Sonora and Chihuahua (and Cuba) were dominated by citizens who previously voted for the ‘Radical Liberal’ party. These ‘citizens’ would probably be much more likely to vote Socialist than Democrat, thus giving the new conservative administration even more reason to jettison them from the Union.
The Republic of Arizona: a new nation built by Mormons, Native Americans, and confederate Ex-Pats. For those of you who know your history the name ‘Arizona’ originated in the Mexican province of Sonora, and was popular with Confederates during the War of Secession (Civil War in OTL.) For strategic purposes the USA would permanently annex bases at Cabo San Lucas (at the tip of Baja California Sur) along with Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Along the same lines, and breaking with several previous posts, I rejected the idea of creating a “black republic” in the American South. The Dewey administration made it clear they intended to re-admit all former American states back into the Union. Creating a ‘Black Republic’ out of North Carolina (for instance) would prevent this complete re-unification. Additionally the animus of southern whites would make for a very hostile environment for returning Blacks. Lastly, it is doubtful many Blacks would choose to remain in the American south when they have such a terrible and recent memory of state sponsored genocide.
Instead I think it MUCH more logical that surviving blacks could be encouraged to emigrate to Cuba, which in Turtledove’s timeline is described as being much more ‘progressive’ and accepting of blacks; for example blacks were allowed surnames in Cuba whereas they had none in the rest of the confederacy. Thus thanks to an overwhelming influx of ‘Population reduction’ survivors, the Republic of Cuba would grow analogous to modern day Israel-- fiercely independent, militaristic, and pro-USA.
This concept of state sponsored migration (force deportation) parallels the action of the Soviet Union at the end of WWII in OTL when entire ethnic/ religious groups were re-organized/shuffled to preempt any nationalist threats to the USSR (see history of Baltic States/ Caucuses, etc). Combined with state sponsored immigration and land grants, veterans and American citizens would be encouraged to move into sparsely populated areas (Canada/ Sequoyah/Utah) and thus ensure favorable voting patterns in future elections and preclude plebiscite initiatives.
Lastly, the issue of Texas. In 1944 Texas declared Independence from the CSA and Governor Wright Patman became “President” Patman. Texas quickly sided with American demands to avoid complete occupation. Previous posts suggest a quasi-independent Republic. Again, based on previous assertions by the Dewey Administration to re-admit all former American states, combined with Texas’s role in the Population Reductions, I find it hard to believe the USA would allow true Texas independence. A more plausible scenario is that the Dewey/Truman Administration would strong arm Patman into once again guiding Texas to join the Union. The USA would accomplish this with the help of the following enticements: 1) offering to return the aborted State of Houston to Texas, 2) Allowing the Texas Rangers to remain the de-facto State Police, and 3) allowing the State Constitution to refer to a ‘Republic of Texas;’ require no federal income tax (instead a unique federal sales tax); and an allowance to fly the Texas flag at the same height as the American flag. Since this is how Texans behave in OTL I find it highly plausible that “Governor” Patman would acquiesce
Any and all feedback appreciated.
The attached map represents my thoughts on a modern day 21st century North America after the United States victory in the Second Great War (WWII).
The major departure from previous maps is that I’ve assumed that the United States has granted independence to Cuba as well as the former Mexican provinces of Sonora, Chihuahua, and both Baja California North and South. The latter 4 Mexican states were combined into a new country under American domination; The Republic of Arizona.
This action would serve the USA’s interests in several ways which I shall articulate below:
These territories were not part of the original USA in 1860 and if the history of the late 19th/ early 20th century taught American politicians anything, it is that diversity leads to disputes and rebellion (see Utah, Congaree Socialist Republic, Black Belt Republic, Canadian uprisings, etc). The conservative Dewey Administration would likely take steps to prevent future uprisings through the (mostly) non-violent deportation of ethnic and religious minority groups. And while both Socialist/ Democrat administrations toyed with the idea of exiling the Mormon population to the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) this is simply not very feasible due to distance. A much more expedient, plausible, and cost effective scenario would be to expel the Mormons south and give them their own state outside of the USA.
Granting the former Mexican provinces their ‘independence’ would also give the USA a convenient spot to deport other undesirable/ potential troublemakers such as the Native American population of Sequoyah (renamed Oklahoma to further break Indian identity), as well as any Confederate POW/ sympathizer who refused to sign a pledge of allegiance to the United States.
The Dewey Administration would realize that Sonora and Chihuahua (and Cuba) were dominated by citizens who previously voted for the ‘Radical Liberal’ party. These ‘citizens’ would probably be much more likely to vote Socialist than Democrat, thus giving the new conservative administration even more reason to jettison them from the Union.
The Republic of Arizona: a new nation built by Mormons, Native Americans, and confederate Ex-Pats. For those of you who know your history the name ‘Arizona’ originated in the Mexican province of Sonora, and was popular with Confederates during the War of Secession (Civil War in OTL.) For strategic purposes the USA would permanently annex bases at Cabo San Lucas (at the tip of Baja California Sur) along with Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Along the same lines, and breaking with several previous posts, I rejected the idea of creating a “black republic” in the American South. The Dewey administration made it clear they intended to re-admit all former American states back into the Union. Creating a ‘Black Republic’ out of North Carolina (for instance) would prevent this complete re-unification. Additionally the animus of southern whites would make for a very hostile environment for returning Blacks. Lastly, it is doubtful many Blacks would choose to remain in the American south when they have such a terrible and recent memory of state sponsored genocide.
Instead I think it MUCH more logical that surviving blacks could be encouraged to emigrate to Cuba, which in Turtledove’s timeline is described as being much more ‘progressive’ and accepting of blacks; for example blacks were allowed surnames in Cuba whereas they had none in the rest of the confederacy. Thus thanks to an overwhelming influx of ‘Population reduction’ survivors, the Republic of Cuba would grow analogous to modern day Israel-- fiercely independent, militaristic, and pro-USA.
This concept of state sponsored migration (force deportation) parallels the action of the Soviet Union at the end of WWII in OTL when entire ethnic/ religious groups were re-organized/shuffled to preempt any nationalist threats to the USSR (see history of Baltic States/ Caucuses, etc). Combined with state sponsored immigration and land grants, veterans and American citizens would be encouraged to move into sparsely populated areas (Canada/ Sequoyah/Utah) and thus ensure favorable voting patterns in future elections and preclude plebiscite initiatives.
Lastly, the issue of Texas. In 1944 Texas declared Independence from the CSA and Governor Wright Patman became “President” Patman. Texas quickly sided with American demands to avoid complete occupation. Previous posts suggest a quasi-independent Republic. Again, based on previous assertions by the Dewey Administration to re-admit all former American states, combined with Texas’s role in the Population Reductions, I find it hard to believe the USA would allow true Texas independence. A more plausible scenario is that the Dewey/Truman Administration would strong arm Patman into once again guiding Texas to join the Union. The USA would accomplish this with the help of the following enticements: 1) offering to return the aborted State of Houston to Texas, 2) Allowing the Texas Rangers to remain the de-facto State Police, and 3) allowing the State Constitution to refer to a ‘Republic of Texas;’ require no federal income tax (instead a unique federal sales tax); and an allowance to fly the Texas flag at the same height as the American flag. Since this is how Texans behave in OTL I find it highly plausible that “Governor” Patman would acquiesce
Any and all feedback appreciated.
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NomadicSky, nice job with your map however I don't really buy idea of creating a black republic in North Carolina. The Dewey administration made it clear they intended to re-admit all former American states back into the Union. Creating a ‘Black Republic’ out of a southern state would prevent this complete re-unification. Additionally the animus of southern whites would make for a very hostile environment for returning Blacks. Lastly, it is doubtful many Blacks would choose to remain in the American south when they have such a terrible and recent memory of state sponsored genocide.
More likely the survivors of the Freedom party death camps would either move into the northern states or out of the country entirely. I also thought Cuba would be a plausible destination. Already accepting of blacks (according to Turtledove) yet not as far or chaotic as Liberia/ Haiti. I included another map with this hypothetical above.
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A Radical Party in the historical sense, has a tendency to be more or less evenly divided between centre-left and centre-right, and each moderate faction in the Socialists and Democrats would want to bolster their numbers.
North American in 2014, cont.
Other notes: In 2014 The United States in comprised of 55 States and 6 Territories. In addition to the ’Lower 46 States’ the USA quickly added ‘New Ireland,’ (formerly New Brunswick) and Nova Scotia after the Second Great War. Next admitted for statehood were the Sandwich Islands and Alaska (obtained from the cash-starved Russian Empire in the late 1940s). Finally, after a generation of migration and forced resettlement the remaining former Canadian provinces narrowly vote to join the Union in the 1960s: Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Columbia (no longer ‘British’ Columbia.)
The six territories of the Unites States consist of The Yukon, the Northwest Territories, Bermuda, Midway, Wake Island, and the Bahamas. Due to their remote location and/or sparse populations these territories are federally administered. Note: Prince Edward Island was absorbed into Nova Scotia due to its small size. Newfoundland and Labrador were given to the Republic of Quebec in compensation for that country’s effort in the Second Great War, and Nunavut never comes into being due to the USA’s antipathy towards native ethnic groups.
Other notes: In 2014 The United States in comprised of 55 States and 6 Territories. In addition to the ’Lower 46 States’ the USA quickly added ‘New Ireland,’ (formerly New Brunswick) and Nova Scotia after the Second Great War. Next admitted for statehood were the Sandwich Islands and Alaska (obtained from the cash-starved Russian Empire in the late 1940s). Finally, after a generation of migration and forced resettlement the remaining former Canadian provinces narrowly vote to join the Union in the 1960s: Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Columbia (no longer ‘British’ Columbia.)
The six territories of the Unites States consist of The Yukon, the Northwest Territories, Bermuda, Midway, Wake Island, and the Bahamas. Due to their remote location and/or sparse populations these territories are federally administered. Note: Prince Edward Island was absorbed into Nova Scotia due to its small size. Newfoundland and Labrador were given to the Republic of Quebec in compensation for that country’s effort in the Second Great War, and Nunavut never comes into being due to the USA’s antipathy towards native ethnic groups.
I don't know why nobody's noticed this before, but I just realized that the borders of Sonora and Chihuahua within the Second Mexican Empire were very different from how they are depicted in TL-191. To attain the area they have shown, the Confederates would have been required to purchase the provinces of Arizona, Sonora, Chihuahua, Alamos, and Batopilos, as shown outlined in red on this map. If they only purchased Sonora and Chihuahua, then the area shown on the map should be the two states outlined in black on the image.
The maps in the books show Mexico having its old republican states. Maybe the imperial government found the new divisions unworkable, and decided to restore the old ones?
That's always possible when you look at some of the other boundaries shown, but some of them actually make more sense compared to their equivalents in the republican states.
Made this out of boredom: a base map for a TL where the Entente won both Great Wars:
Hello Everyone as a alternate history fan I have deiced to write a book based on The Southern Victory Series. I was wondering how you guys make the maps because I would love to be able to put my own maps in my book.
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