Jesus is never crucified?

[le.Singe]

What if Jesus were never crucified? He could have been killed a number of other ways. Poisoned? Stabbed? Fed to lions? Maybe he just died of natural causes. What changes would we see, both in Christianity and history as a whole?

Obviously, crosses would no longer symbolize Christians, which would change heraldry forever. Also, I'm guessing that crucifixion is going to remain a popular method of execution in Europe even after Christianity takes over (assuming it does). Anything else?

 

[Keenir]

What if Jesus were never crucified? He could have been killed a number of other ways. Poisoned? Stabbed? Fed to lions? Maybe he just died of natural causes. What changes would we see, both in Christianity and history as a whole?

Obviously, crosses would no longer symbolize Christians, which would change heraldry forever. Also, I'm guessing that crucifixion is going to remain a popular method of execution in Europe even after Christianity takes over (assuming it does). Anything else?

there are several options:
* No Christianity -- Jesus is considered a Jewish rabbi, if nearly as schismatic as John the Baptist was.

* No Christianity -- Jesus's followers start a religion after Jesus dies of old age or disease (40? 49?)...and cling to religious survival much as the OTL Mandieans(sp) have done.

* Christianity -- if the Romans don't kill Jesus, who does? the Siccarri? the Persians? the Nabateans or Commagenes?
(if its the Siccarri, that'll end any any Christian claims to Judea or Jerusalem)

 

[le.Singe]

* Christianity -- if the Romans don't kill Jesus, who does? the Siccarri? the Persians? the Nabateans or Commagenes?
(if its the Siccarri, that'll end any any Christian claims to Judea or Jerusalem)

I never said the Romans couldn't kill Jesus... [ Wow. That would sound funny out of context.] I just said they couldn't nail him to a stick. What about a colosseum-type death? Was that even a possibility? I'm imagining peaceful Jesus dropping his sword in front of thousands of spectators and letting himself be killed. That's one way to draw attention, no?

 

[Redem]

I never said the Romans couldn't kill Jesus... [ Wow. That would sound funny out of context.] I just said they couldn't nail him to a stick. What about a colosseum-type death? ?

Jesus the gladitor, I'm sure if he had been badass cool enough, I'm sure all six billions of us would be Christian by now

 

[Leo Caesius]

I'm imagining peaceful Jesus dropping his sword in front of thousands of spectators and letting himself be killed. That's one way to draw attention, no?

How about he sacrifices himself by refusing to submit to despotism, like Hussein? That might have interesting results...

 

[HUCK]

I'm sorry, but that is not possible. God already had a plan layed out and would have seen this forecoming and done something about. Jesus was destined to die on the cross.

 

[le.Singe]

How about he sacrifices himself by refusing to submit to despotism, like Hussein? That might have interesting results...

So, a Warrior Jesus? That would indeed have very interesting implications. Does he get killed in battle? Could this cause an early demise for the Roman Empire at the hands of Judeo-Christian rebels? This could be very interesting...

Not very consistent with his "turn the other cheek" philosophy, but interesting nonetheless...

I'm sorry, but that is not possible. God already had a plan layed out and would have seen this forecoming and done something about. Jesus was destined to die on the cross.

If you believe in predestination, I'd like to know what you're doing on an alternate history forum. Not that there's anything wrong with your beliefs, it's just that the very nature of AH relies on the principle that things might have happened otherwise. In other words, what if God had had a different plan in mind?

 

[Kaptin Kurk]

I've always been fond of fighting Jesus myself. He grabs the Roman's sword in the garden, lops his head off. Then takes down half a company before finally being brought down. (He's played by Mel Gibson hence forth, of course.)

But at somepoint, he should scream something really patriotic (or religiotic), like "You can kill me, but you can never kill Israel!" of perhaps simply, with an austrian accent of course, 'I'll be back'. Either way, you might get more of the Jews living in Israel to follow him after such a heroic display (as opposed to the Diaspora Jews who seemed to favor him more historically)

Not to mention what would happen if he did, three days latter, appear to his apostle like that....and litterally teach them to be 'Sword-Saints.' Maybe Judiasm / Christianity ends up more like Islam, having stellar and martial success much earlier in its evolution and fanatical warriors, you know, in the image of Mel Gibson..er..I mean Christ. Sweeet!

Maybe Christians even drink real blood at communion...after all....they'd have so much from all their fallen enemies with an Christ-like figure to guide them....

Or...more likely...they'd just be completely wiped out by the Romans...but hey....

 

[Keenir]

I just said they couldn't nail him to a stick. What about a colosseum-type death? Was that even a possibility?

while The Colosseum[tm] wouldn't be built until long after Jesus died in OTL (around 70 AD or so), there were surely a number of small regional colosseums -- it was a Roman development of an Etruscan funerary tradition, after all.

quote=Leo Caesius;1336732]How about he sacrifices himself by refusing to submit to despotism, like Hussein? That might have interesting results...[/quote]

a martyred & non-crucified Christ. very cool!

I'm sorry, but that is not possible. God already had a plan layed out and would have seen this forecoming and done something about. Jesus was destined to die on the cross.

Surely God's intellect would allow Him to have back-up plans in case one line of events failed to pan out. (Free Will kicks in, after all)

 

[Dan1988]

So what if Jesus fulfilled the Jewish expectations of the Messiah?

 

[HUCK]

If you believe in predestination, I'd like to know what you're doing on an alternate history forum. Not that there's anything wrong with your beliefs, it's just that the very nature of AH relies on the principle that things might have happened otherwise. In other words, what if God had had a different plan in mind?

But God is all powerful, if He had a different course in mind it would have gone a different way. I, personally just like AH because, I like history. I think we choose how we live, but either way it works in God's favor.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

* Christianity -- if the Romans don't kill Jesus, who does? the Siccarri? the Persians? the Nabateans or Commagenes?
(if its the Siccarri, that'll end any any Christian claims to Judea or Jerusalem)

Assuming the accounts in the Bible are at least reliable in the basic facts, it seems to me that if Jesus were not killed by the Romans it is quite possible the Jews might take action on their own. Considering how many feathers his teachings ruffled, it seems quite possible that at some point he offends the religious authorities badly enough to end up getting stoned (waits for someone to make a bad joke regarding Jesus getting high). If Christianity still becomes a major religion in an ATL with a stoning instead of a crucifixion Judeo-Christian relations are going to be much nastier than OTL.

 

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Assuming the accounts in the Bible are at least reliable in the basic facts, it seems to me that if Jesus were not killed by the Romans it is quite possible the Jews might take action on their own. Considering how many feathers his teachings ruffled, it seems quite possible that at some point he offends the religious authorities badly enough to end up getting stoned (waits for someone to make a bad joke regarding Jesus getting high). If Christianity still becomes a major religion in an ATL with a stoning instead of a crucifixion Judeo-Christian relations are going to be much nastier than OTL.

DUDE, Jesus was High ...

Well, at Least Pot Would Be Legal ...

As for HUCK, your Position Presumes Information Not in Evidence, Namely that Jesus was in Fact Divine!

 

[Keenir]

But God is all powerful, if He had a different course in mind it would have gone a different way.

that suggests God is dependant on contingent events, rather than able to do His Will no matter what happens.

I, personally just like AH because, I like history. I think we choose how we live, but either way it works in God's favor.

some One patient enough to let His creation exist for more than a year, would be patient enough to take the long view.

 

[Keenir]

So what if Jesus fulfilled the Jewish expectations of the Messiah?

some were expecting someone along the lines of Bar Kochba.

not sure what all the other Jewish denominations were expecting.

 

[Keenir]

Assuming the accounts in the Bible are at least reliable in the basic facts, it seems to me that if Jesus were not killed by the Romans it is quite possible the Jews might take action on their own. Considering how many feathers his teachings ruffled, it seems quite possible that at some point he offends the religious authorities badly enough to end up getting stoned .

except for one problem: to modern and medieval Christians, there might be one group known as Jews -- but in Jesus' day, there were many groups (Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes, Siccarri, etc)...and they didn't all agree on points of religious doctrine.

EDIT: one thing they all had in common, though, was that all were forbidden (by the Romans) to execute anyone -- the Romans claimed that privledge for themselves, and were not shy about using it.

 

[Hendryk]

I'm sorry, but that is not possible. God already had a plan layed out and would have seen this forecoming and done something about. Jesus was destined to die on the cross.

But God is all powerful, if He had a different course in mind it would have gone a different way. I, personally just like AH because, I like history. I think we choose how we live, but either way it works in God's favor.

The Bible itself explicitly mentions God changing His plans. Are you saying the Bible is wrong?

The idea that history was predetermined by God from the very beginning isn't only incompatible with the very concept of AH, as le.Singe has observed, it also necessarily leads to a refutation of God's own words in Genesis. On at least two occasions, He was displayed being forced by events to change His plans, and both times the changes were radical indeed.

The first one was none other than the Fall; unless one is going to argue that God intended all along for Satan to sneak in, and tempt Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit so He could kick them out of Eden, then the Fall wasn't part of God's original plan.

The second one was, obviously enough, the Flood. Here we have it in the big guy's own words (Genesis 6:5-7):

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

 

[RPW@Cy]

EDIT: one thing they all had in common, though, was that all were forbidden (by the Romans) to execute anyone -- the Romans claimed that privledge for themselves, and were not shy about using it.

That only applies to legal executions, it doesn't stop a lynch mob from getting him - which is I assume what was being referred to. Jesus meeting the same fate as St. Stephen, in other words. Would this make a stone the symbol of Christianity? Bishops carrying things that look like maces?

But yes, I think that in such a scenario the prediction that anti-Semitism would be even nastier is spot on

 

[el t]

Jesus

This question is more theological than historical. The Jesus of the gospels has never even been historically verified. I am of the opinion that Christianity is based upon a mythological Christ. Therefore to debate whether he was crucified or not really is not relevant.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

That only applies to legal executions, it doesn't stop a lynch mob from getting him - which is I assume what was being referred to. Jesus meeting the same fate as St. Stephen, in other words. Would this make a stone the symbol of Christianity? Bishops carrying things that look like maces?

But yes, I think that in such a scenario the prediction that anti-Semitism would be even nastier is spot on

Some sort of lynch mob was pretty much what I had in mind, yes. It doesn't seem to much of a stretch to have his teachings provoke a riot of some sort amongst the people who disagree with them, and an extrajudicial stoning isn't too hard arrange since all you need is some angry people and plenty of throwing-sized rocks.

It might be interesting to see how Christian relations with the Romans were altered by such a change. Presumably the Romans are going to do their best to break up the riot/lynch mob that kills Jesus; they were opposed to those kinds of things on general principle. Between that and the fact that he was not executed by Rome relations between Christians and Romans might be friendlier than OTL.