Twilight of the Red Tsar

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The End of a System

If you really want to make this place Dystopian, you can have the radicals destroy the Pyramids and other great archaeological wonders from Egypt's past. This was suggested by leading clerics when the Brotherhood was in charge in Egypt in OTL. Also, are they still paying the reparations to the West? Because if they stopped, how's the West dealing with it?

Hopefully, if we do get something out of this mess, the Kurds can finally get a country.
 
If you really want to make this place Dystopian, you can have the radicals destroy the Pyramids and other great archaeological wonders from Egypt's past. This was suggested by leading clerics when the Brotherhood was in charge in Egypt in OTL.

Hopefully, if we do get something out of this mess, the Kurds can finally get a country.
The destruction of ancient Egyptian artifacts is another radicals vs. moderates issue. The moderates are content to let the artifacts remain, reasoning that centuries of Islamic rulers left them alone already, so what's the harm in keeping them? Meanwhile, the radicals would argue that many of these artifacts are graven images, particularly since they often represent pagan gods and god-kings.
 
On another note regarding the Iraq Civil War (although it seems to happen pretty far into the future ITTL) the Sunnis are pretty much destined to lose at this point. If the Americans are against them, and knowing the poor reputation the Soviets have for arming their allies, they don't have a chance. What is interesting is to see how the Kurds and Shia act with each other, and who America supports should worst come to worst (unfortunately, knowing the Kurds' historical luck, I don't have much hope for them). For long term stability, the best thing to happen would be a three way split between a Sunni Arab, Shia Arab, and Kurd state. If we're unlucky, the Sunnis will be enthralled by Egypt's example.

It's going to be interesting to see how the Egyptian Islamic Revolution affects the broader region. Iran was one of the few Shia majority regions in the Middle East, so its outreach was limited. With the whole Sunni world to play with, Egypt has lit a massive fire under the global Muslim population. With no Oil shock to worry about, not to mention how incredibly perilous the border with Israel would be (imagine Iran and Israel on eachother's doorstep), it's not too hard to imagine another Western intervention in the future. I can't imagine the Jewish expulsion has gone down very well with foreigners, though I'm sure plenty of people in the Middle East will endorse that.
 
Well that happened. I'm guessing the Ba'ath party is going to be more inclusive then OTL (possibly meaning no Saddam) and may still end up in charge of Iraq. Meanwhile I think another internvetion in Egypt has to be done as I don't trust leaving the Suez Cannel in the hands of the intellectual godfather of al-Qaed/ a government which has him in a position of power.

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On another note regarding the Iraq Civil War (although it seems to happen pretty far into the future ITTL) the Sunnis are pretty much destined to lose at this point. If the Americans are against them, and knowing the poor reputation the Soviets have for arming their allies, they don't have a chance. What is interesting is to see how the Kurds and Shia act with each other, and who America supports should worst come to worst (unfortunately, knowing the Kurds' historical luck, I don't have much hope for them). For long term stability, the best thing to happen would be a three way split between a Sunni Arab, Shia Arab, and Kurd state. If we're unlucky, the Sunnis will be enthralled by Egypt's example.

It's going to be interesting to see how the Egyptian Islamic Revolution affects the broader region. Iran was one of the few Shia majority regions in the Middle East, so its outreach was limited. With the whole Sunni world to play with, Egypt has lit a massive fire under the global Muslim population. With no Oil shock to worry about, not to mention how incredibly perilous the border with Israel would be (imagine Iran and Israel on eachother's doorstep), it's not too hard to imagine another Western intervention in the future. I can't imagine the Jewish expulsion has gone down very well with foreigners, though I'm sure plenty of people in the Middle East will endorse that.

I think that if Iraq gets portioned along those lines the Sunni State may will end up part of Syria plus considering Turkey (a NATO member at this point) has a Kurdish population I don't think the US will support an independent state but autonomy.

Also given that Mesopotamia (which is Iraq) existed as a geopolitical unit in the past I think a modern Iraqi state can be stable under the right circumstances.
 
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Iranian style revolution in Egypt in the 60's; ok this will create a lot of changes and problems. First things will be destinatated to come to terms between moderate and radical and i don't think that the radicals have this great advantages, at the time Egypt was a fairly modern in term of society and bring this type of changes will create attrition; getting human history tresure like the Pyramid that are know and cherished worldwide will create an international uproar.

Talking of consequece; yes it will spread, Egypt was the most developed arab nation, basically the natural leader of the pack and the trend setter and Syria, with the post Turkysh invasion angst and historical instability and the now raging Iraq civil war are some prime target to form ITTL version of the United Arab Republic (probably more stable and longer lived than OTL version...but not that much, the Egyptian islamist or not, they will always tend to dominate the situation creating big attrition with everyone else) and try to spread to the rest of the arab world ('funny' if the good colonnel instead of Nasser take from the radical islam as the new way) and this can have consequence also in Algeria and Tunisia creating division on the new born nation or in the rebels forces (yes we need an update ASAP in that situation as mean a lot of consequences worldwide).

Israel will be very very worried about that, expecially if other nations fall to them as like OTL 1967 will fear the her own existence and this can bring a more formal alliance with the Anglo-French (as said many time, ITTL i greatly doubt that they leave Tel Aviv alone, between the 'second holocaust' and the legacy of the 'Suez war' will be politically unfeasible and there were closer ties...hell Israel can even try to become member of the EEC) or/and 'behind the scene' type of alliance with Persia and other arab state that fear the spread of radical islamism.
Turkey will not be very happy (to say the least) about the Kurd revolt and the US support given as they will rightly fear that soon it will spread to them, so i expect a strong military presence at the Turkey-Iraq border...with the usual consequeces (probably very similar to OTL Turkey-Syria border incidents).

The new soviet leaderships will probably lavish the Egyptian revolutionary with aid and weapons (even if they will really don't like the religious tone of that revolution), as they will do with any possible ally (like Indonesia) due to their pretty much isolation and great difficulty to strike back to the US/NATO in many places.
This bring the sitaution of the non-aligned movement; ITTL Nasser and Baath'ism place can be taken by the islam revolution...that's a 'little' less palatable internationally and while will hit the right string in many third world country regarding the will to fight the western empires, the need to grow up and be strong the the bright future, will also fail to make a lot of friend in the western young generations (sorry, i doubt that in the 60's at the dawn of the sexual revolution and the home of the swinging London, the youngster will feel very attracted by people that make look their parents extremely liberals and hippie-like) and this can create a lot of difference between ITTL 68 (or similar event) and OTL; basically it will be probably more focused in national situation and much less about world changes and revolution...if ITTL this thing will be even possible, between the clusterfuck that's the Eastern block and the situation in the middle east, i expect a much less relevances of far left propaganda/ideologies and even Cooperativism will be something more akin to OTL Eurocommunism than revolutionary or standard communism, plus there will be some sense of common continental struggle/siege that can, at least temporary, create a greater sense of unity...as seem that the rest of the world outside America and Western Europe has gone mad.

Continuing speaking of ITTL NOM, well it seem can dangerously develop in an active partecipant of the cold war and have great religious overtone, expecially when some his biggest potential members are the radical islamist and the aggressive Taoist, plus an Indonesia that will play just is OTL role; much depend of India stance but there is also to consider the OTL 1961 seizure of Goa and ITTL Portugal can get support from the EDC (as a matter of principle) and the US or just have the possibility to send reiforcements through the Suez canal unlike OTL, not that all this will change the endgame but can create a worse conflict with much more bad blood left; and someone that can take the place of Nasser or Tito as a leader of the NOM can be a surviving Janio Quadros of Brasil, it was a populist and with a foreign policy that antagonized the US and general western power)
In any case an Europe that is more determinated or willing to fight can create a string of brieg low level conflict that can create a much more militant NOM due to the just sheer numbers of potential clash that are possible in that period (India, Papua New Guinea, Congo, etc. etc.)
 
With the Middle east more in turmoil than OTL and the higher number of continuing nuclear program; the use of nuclear energy power can be widespread ITTL making the west more independent energy wise from oil and create further butterfly if the producer usual capacity of economic pressure and profit is lessened
 

bookmark95

Banned
That man is what I imagine an Egyptian Pol Pot would look like. Is his zeal so great, he'll destroy the pyramids as "a pagan symbol"? Its disturbing that Nasser was the guy who prevennted jihadists from taking over Egypt.
Talk about the flapping of butterflies, that Iraq has become our enemies, and may end up giving Kurds independence. Maybe that could be a bright spot OTL, and something we begrudgingly thank Nixon for.
 
That man is what I imagine an Egyptian Pol Pot would look like. Is his zeal so great, he'll destroy the pyramids as "a pagan symbol"? Its disturbing that Nasser was the guy who prevennted jihadists from taking over Egypt.
Talk about the flapping of butterflies, that Iraq has become our enemies, and may end up giving Kurds independence. Maybe that could be a bright spot OTL, and something we begrudgingly thank Nixon for.

Even Pol Pot, obsessed as he was with pressing the reset button of Cambodia's history, left Angkor Wat alone, and there isn't much that psychopath wasn't willing to do.
 
Hello! I'd just like to say that I've just discovered this TL, and I find it to be well-thought-out and well-written. Good work!
 
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To make things worse Sayyid Qutb IOTL was the intellectual godfather of al-Qaeda and ISIS. His ideas on takfir and Islamic vanguardism were particularly influential, although TTL is not at the point where he formulated them (which was in the mid-1960s). Also he has the most evil mustache in history:
View attachment 287151

Except that in TTL, Qutbism will not be flavoured with Saudi Wahhabism although I imagine that it will maintain much of its iconoclasm.

Due to the earlier rise of Political Islam, I wonder if Ayatollah Khomeini will be put on the CIA's radar. Nasser in TTL will be viewed in the same light as OTL Mossadeqh (a moderate secular reformer who was brought down by the West under the fear that he was another Jan Masaryk only have the successor regime overthrown by political islamists).
 
I have to admit, with a revived Yellow Peril (in the form of militant Taoists), the ghost of the "Mad Mahdi", and the cartoonishly evil early-1950s depiction of Communism and Stalin being more apparent and reaching new lows, an alternative name for this TL could be, "Tales of a Pulpier 1950s" (all of the above are recurring themes in contemporary pulp adventure/action novels/magazines).
 
I have to admit, with a revived Yellow Peril (in the form of militant Taoists), the ghost of the "Mad Mahdi", and the cartoonishly evil early-1950s depiction of Communism and Stalin being more apparent and reaching new lows, an alternative name for this TL could be, "Tales of a Pulpier 1950s" (all of the above are recurring themes in contemporary pulp adventure/action novels/magazines).

I was thinking 'It's a Mad Mad Mad World' with Peter Sellers doubling as the Taoist Emperor and Dr. Strangelove the german-american scientific adviser, Boris Karloff as the Sayyid Qutb
 

Teshuvah

Banned
Crossposted from the meme thread :p

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Except that in TTL, Qutbism will not be flavoured with Saudi Wahhabism although I imagine that it will maintain much of its iconoclasm.

Due to the earlier rise of Political Islam, I wonder if Ayatollah Khomeini will be put on the CIA's radar. Nasser in TTL will be viewed in the same light as OTL Mossadeqh (a moderate secular reformer who was brought down by the West under the fear that he was another Jan Masaryk only have the successor regime overthrown by political islamists).

Except that Mossadegh has plausible deniability about his links to Communism. Nasser openly tried to align himself to someone who is going down in history as Hitler's blood brother.
 
Yeah, Islamism is going to spread from the Sunni Arab bastion of Egypt across the Middle East, and probably Sub-Saharan Africa, Central Asia, the Subcontinent, and Indonesia too, like wildfire.

Taoist and Islamist fanatics in the same setting, holy sheeet!
 
For all that it's worth, I think I'll be basing my depiction of an Imperial invasion of a secessionist world in my Warhammer 40k fanfic off Stalin's invasion of China in TTL (though done by a Not British Empire rather than Not Soviets).
 
Except that Mossadegh has plausible deniability about his links to Communism. Nasser openly tried to align himself to someone who is going down in history as Hitler's blood brother.

Who in turn left him out to dry when Nasser needed Stalin the most. Nasser might be view as a pawn in the Red Tsar mad games and could have stop the Islamic fanatics from taking power if the West had let him be.
 
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