WI: Napoleon captures Alexander at Leipzig

As we all know there was a chance right before the battle for French forces to capture both the Tsar and the king of Prussia.

If that happens, it seems obvious that the coalition would immediately collapse, leaving Napoleonic Germany secure for the time being. What would Napoleon press for in the negotiations that followed, and what could he get?

Then, if Russia, Prussia and Austria are out of the war, what's Napoleon's next military move?
 
As we all know there was a chance right before the battle for French forces to capture both the Tsar and the king of Prussia.

If that happens, it seems obvious that the coalition would immediately collapse, leaving Napoleonic Germany secure for the time being. What would Napoleon press for in the negotiations that followed, and what could he get?

Then, if Russia, Prussia and Austria are out of the war, what's Napoleon's next military move?
A capture of the Coalition leaders at Leipzig means not only the coalition is dissolved, but also that Prussia might get its King changed. Afterwards, there is only one battlefield left for Napoleon, one where he has a worthy foe to crush : Spain.
 
A capture of the Coalition leaders at Leipzig means not only the coalition is dissolved, but also that Prussia might get its King changed.

Would it actually? Maybe five years or more earlier, it would have, but by 1813 there is a deep well of Napoleon hatred. The earlier politics just no longer applied.

King Frederick Wilhelm was rather ineffectual, and the real leadership of the state and military was in the hands of the reforming generals and ministers. Much of the Freikorps and landsturm were independently organized. If the king is captured, I think the Prussian resistance would continue regardless. I see Chancellor Von Hardenberg carrying on regardless.

The question of Tsar Alexander is different, as he was firmly in control of the Russian state. However, both he and the rest of the Russian elite were firmly against Napoleon at this point of view. It seems to me, rather than surrender, the Russian generals at Leipzig would hope to liberate the captured Tsar. The big problem here is the chain of command for the battle (although I assume Von Benningsen still commands at Leipzig with Barclay in overall military command), and political leadership for Russia overall without the Tsar (I don't know who would most likely serve in some kind of regency role).

What is Napoleon going to do to them? His only real option is to treat them courteously while they are prisoners. Even hinting he may kill his fellow sovereigns would ruin whatever reputation he has left, and it is by no means certain the remaining Prussian and Russian leaders will give in. It's not even certain that Frederick Wilhelm or Alexander would even want their countries to give in. While neither would willfully seek martyrdom, they know turning back now would destroy their reputation in posterity.

I am open to being convinced otherwise, but by 1813 I am not sure even such a stunning coup like this would save Napoleon.
 
I wonder how much this helps Austria...

If the Prussians and Russians are thrown into disarray, the Austrian command structure could claim credit for more of the subsequent victories, if the fight continues... which could result in Austria getting more of its way at the new Congress of Vienna.
 

Redbeard

Banned
In some ways it would be much more easy for the allied supreme commander Schwarzenberg, if Friedrich Wilhelm and especially Alexander are gone. The big question is however if the Russian war effort will stay cohesive without Alexander. If the allied armies at Leipzig stays in the field and accept commands from Schwarzenberg I think the allies will end up at least as good as in OTL, but the Austrians will come out of the war as the big savior. The road to German unity under Prussia is unlikely to lead anywhere.

If however this has Napoleon win Leipzig and split the coalition, which IMHO is at least as likely as the above scenario, a lot will change.

First, Prussia probably will be dismembered altogether and Friedrich Wilhelm given some small island to rule (as lighthouse keeper). Russia can't just be dismembered, but I guess some "goodies" could be carved out and either be given semi-independent vassal status or given to loyal allies in exchange for sending the Zar back.

Bernadotte will be finished everywhere but in hell and it will be very interesting who will be offered the Throne of Sweden. Frederik VI of Denmark-Norway had been mentioned before Bernadotte, but I doubt Napoleon would like one Monarch in charge of the Baltic entrances again - vassal or not. Sweden will have to give up Finland (independence?) and probably hand over Jämtland and Pommerania to Denmark-Norway.

Poland is going to be big and fat on all the Russian and Prussian goodies fed to her.

In Germany Saxony will be on steroids and being Bavaria will be almost as bad business as being Prussia.

Austria probably will be allowed to survive in some "close-cut" form, Francis after all is father-in-law, but will be told to sod off from anything outside the border to the Ottomans.

The attention of the Grande Armee will go to Spain, which of course is bad news for the British presence there as there is an acute shortage of new coalitions vs. Napoleon in Europe. Napoleon is likely to initiate an ambitious naval build-up.

When Napoleon dies the French hegemony of course will be very vulnerable, especially if it is combined with some kind of German national rise under a Bolivar type. OTOH any French ruler with a basic idea of ruling should be able to crush such an uprising, he will after all have a lot of allies in the German Monarchs. Germany might be an unruly place however for some decades to come.
 
The reality is despite the win, France is still struggling- there is no way they get that sort of peace. Status quo peace is likely, perhaps Prussia dismembered but that's it (prob split between Austria and Saxony)
 
Poland is going to be big and fat on all the Russian and Prussian goodies fed to her.


No way is there going to be a Poland as long as The Allies still have armies in the field - which they will; even a bloody nose at Leipzig won't come anywhere near knocking them out.

Even Constantine, as Tsar, would never tolerate a big Poland for any longer than it took him to put a new army together - no Russian would.
 
All of this depends on Leipzig as well. If Napoleon captures Alexander and Friedrich Wilhelm, but still loses the battle of nations, what then? Attempt peace that was offered at Prague earlier in the year (I think it had France keeping its 1804 borders but leaving Germany, not sure about Italy)? Or fight on and hope for another victory?

And, if Napoleon wins Leipzig, how big a victory are we talking about? Something like Austerlitz (total victory) or more of a Pyrrhic victory? If its a total victory (the armies are crushed along with the Prussian King and Russian Tsar captured) then Napoleon has basically won and can dictate whatever terms he wants.

For peace, I'd guess that Prussia is basically ended. Silesia could go to Austria (if Napoleon's willing to forgive his in-laws), with the Polish territories going to a reborn Polish state. Prussia would be reduced to its 1740 borders. I'd also guess that Austria might be stripped of Galicia, which also goes to Poland. And I think Russia would be forced to cede at least some of their partition territory, probably to the point of the inter-war Second Polish Republic if not to pre-second partition levels, depending on how bad Russia is crushed.

Although I do wonder about Sweden and Jean Bernadotte. Its possible that Napoleon might try to strip him of the Swedish succession and replace him with someone else, maybe restoring the deposed Gustaf IV or making Gustaf's son the new Crown Prince. After that, the only thing left for Napoleon was the Spanish mess and peace with England. Would Napoleon be willing to restore Fernando VII if he wins at Leipzig or would he hold out and support his brother with a new army?
 

Redbeard

Banned
No way is there going to be a Poland as long as The Allies still have armies in the field - which they will; even a bloody nose at Leipzig won't come anywhere near knocking them out.

Even Constantine, as Tsar, would never tolerate a big Poland for any longer than it took him to put a new army together - no Russian would.

If Napoleon still looses Leipzig then there is no problem for you, but if he doesn't it is likely that the main victim is the Russian army, loosing its undisputed commander. With that and Alexander and Friedrich Wilhelm in French arrest I seriously doubt the coalition will hold. I guess the Austrian will withdraw to Bohemia, the mountains bordering to Saxony hold good defensive positions. The Austrian army of 1813 was much better that it is usually given credit for, but it was the last the Austrians could field and their Empire depends on an intact army.

And even if an successor to Alexander stay in the fight it will be quite another matter to dislodge the French and Polish from Poland than to let a French invasion force freeze and starve to death.
 
All of this depends on Leipzig as well. If Napoleon captures Alexander and Friedrich Wilhelm, but still loses the battle of nations, what then? Attempt peace that was offered at Prague earlier in the year (I think it had France keeping its 1804 borders but leaving Germany, not sure about Italy)? Or fight on and hope for another victory?
he wants.

If they were captured before the battle, would it even be fought? I'm not sure.
 
For peace, I'd guess

What peace?

Ferdinand VII spent the entire Peninsular War as a captive in France, but his subjects fought on perfectly well without him. Any reason to suppose that other people couldn't have done the same?

And remember they don't have to win many battles - just keep on fighting. Napoleon will run out of manpower before they do, even if he wins as often as he loses. In another year his enemies will still have reserves when he is down to conscripting boys of 16. Having a couple of royal prisoners doesn't change that - or certainly not for very long.
 
What peace?

Ferdinand VII spent the entire Peninsular War as a captive in France, but his subjects fought on perfectly well without him. Any reason to suppose that other people couldn't have done the same?

But I feel like that's a little different. Spanish people rose up against the "godless" foreign occupier in their own country.

At Leipzig TTL is talking about two armies suddenly losing their sovereign, who had been instrumental in war strategy. I feel like the abruptness of that loss is going to disorient the chain of command and probably lead to furious debate among generals about whether to proceed or open negotiations with Napoleon.
 
If he captures them, they are worth something at the peace table. Given what was offered in 1813, and Nappy not taking it, I have my doubts peace will happen even if he gets a slightly better deal.

Alexander might be more willing to sue for peace, since Russian thrones tend to be pretty insecure, and no Russia in the war changes things.

Also, much depends on whether this butterflies Poniatowski's death- I think Napoleon respected him highly, and he's alive I don't think he sells out Poland as easily.
 
There was not only Alexander I of Russia but also Frederick-William III of Prussia and their heads of staff who rescapés being captured by an inch.

So here's my assessment of the situation.

Napoleon had already been strategically rolled back from the Niemen to the Elbe. He could not regain Poland and the Niemen.
But tactically, although lacking cavalry, he more often bested his opponents in the 1813 campaign.

So if he captures the political and military heads of Russia and Prussia, the coalition is beheaded. It will be the miracle of the House of Bonaparte the same way there was a miracle of the house of Brandeburg in 1762.

My guess is that either the coalition retreats and does not fight at Leipzig or that it is severely defeated.

There is going to be a peace treaty rather favourable to France.

France will have to give-up its hegemony over the Rhine confederacy because that's a condition that Russia, Austria and Prussia want. Either the confederacy becomes independant or it becomes "protected" and guaranteed by the great powers.

Bavaria will hand Tyrol back to Austria and Austria will regain Illyria.

Russia and Prussia will break Poland up,

France will hand Spain back to the spanish Bourbon.

France will restore a Dutch independant kingdom north of the Rhine.

France will agree that after Nappy's death, the crown of the north italian kingdom will be held by someone different from the emperor of France.

France will get some compensations, maybe western Switzerland and Milan, plus some colonies : dutch Indonesia and some spanish colonies (maybe Argentina if if France can succeed in the conquest Britain failed).
 
But I feel like that's a little different. Spanish people rose up against the "godless" foreign occupier in their own country.

At Leipzig TTL is talking about two armies suddenly losing their sovereign, who had been instrumental in war strategy. I feel like the abruptness of that loss is going to disorient the chain of command and probably lead to furious debate among generals about whether to proceed or open negotiations with Napoleon.


Only if Napoleon is far more moderate than he is likely to be.

I can imagine some kind of "ceasefire in place", though I'm sceptical of how long it would last. If he demands the return of the Duchy of Warsaw, or cession of Prussian or Austrian territory, then the war most likely goes on.
 
Also, much depends on whether this butterflies Poniatowski's death- I think Napoleon respected him highly, and he's alive I don't think he sells out Poland as easily.

But Poland (ie the Duchy of Warsaw) is already in Russian hands. Are they really going to give it back?
 
If he captures them, they are worth something at the peace table. Given what was offered in 1813, and Nappy not taking it, I have my doubts peace will happen even if he gets a slightly better deal.

Alexander might be more willing to sue for peace, since Russian thrones tend to be pretty insecure, and no Russia in the war changes things.

Also, much depends on whether this butterflies Poniatowski's death- I think Napoleon respected him highly, and he's alive I don't think he sells out Poland as easily.

Józef Poniatowski died at Leipzig, so with a POD before the battle there's a chance he could survive. Personally I like the idea of Józef marrying Princess Maria Augusta of Saxony, the only child of Frederick Augustus of Saxony & Warsaw and the so-called Infanta of Poland, and jointly ruling over a smaller Poland.

There was not only Alexander I of Russia but also Frederick-William III of Prussia and their heads of staff who rescapés being captured by an inch.

So here's my assessment of the situation.

Napoleon had already been strategically rolled back from the Niemen to the Elbe. He could not regain Poland and the Niemen.
But tactically, although lacking cavalry, he more often bested his opponents in the 1813 campaign.

So if he captures the political and military heads of Russia and Prussia, the coalition is beheaded. It will be the miracle of the House of Bonaparte the same way there was a miracle of the house of Brandeburg in 1762.

My guess is that either the coalition retreats and does not fight at Leipzig or that it is severely defeated.

There is going to be a peace treaty rather favourable to France.

France will have to give-up its hegemony over the Rhine confederacy because that's a condition that Russia, Austria and Prussia want. Either the confederacy becomes independant or it becomes "protected" and guaranteed by the great powers.

Bavaria will hand Tyrol back to Austria and Austria will regain Illyria.

Russia and Prussia will break Poland up,

France will hand Spain back to the spanish Bourbon.

France will restore a Dutch independant kingdom north of the Rhine.

France will agree that after Nappy's death, the crown of the north italian kingdom will be held by someone different from the emperor of France.

France will get some compensations, maybe western Switzerland and Milan, plus some colonies : dutch Indonesia and some spanish colonies (maybe Argentina if if France can succeed in the conquest Britain failed).

Matteo, I think your WAY overestimating the coalition's bargaining power. If the King and Tsar, along with their command staffs, are captured and the French win a decisive victory at Leipzig, then the Coalition will probably collapse.

If we're assuming the Coalition is routed and whats left of the armies retreat, either to Bohemia or breaks up along national lines, then Napoleon's in the position to regain the tactical advantage. Breaking down your ideas for the peace:

1. None of the three eastern powers would be in a position to dictate anything about the Confederation of the Rhine. Napoleon still controls most of Germany and I'd assume Bavaria, Saxony and the other states are still loyal. So on route there unless the Coalition recovers, beats Napoleon elsewhere and moves into Germany.

2. Tyrol and IIllyria MIGHT be returned to Austria, if the Austrians can quickly make peace, switch sides or if their army is relatively intact. If their army is crushed then Austria's out, as this was basically their last role of the dice: they were running out of manpower.

3. Poland's going to be the main sticking point. Remember, Prussia's King and Russia's Tsar are in Napoleon's custody: would either power be in a position to fight on here? OK maybe Prussia but Russia, the absolute monarchy deeply dependent on the Tsar to keep the government running? I doubt it.

3 and 4. WHY would Napoleon, who's just pulled a coup de grace, give up the Netherlands and Spain? The coalition, on the other side of Europe, would be in no position to dictate such terms, even with an ATL victory at Leipzig. Nappy would laugh in their faces.

5. Legally the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy was still set to go to Eugène de Beauharnais, Napoleon's former step-son. While Napoleon had hinted at wanting to leave both France and Italy to the King of Rome, nothing had legally changed by 1813.

6. Finally, only Britain's in a position to give over colonies to France, which I can't see them doing at this point. Although if a permanent peace is established in Europe between Napoleon and the sixth coalition forces, then we could see London finally come to the barging table.

Britain would probably get an evacuation of Portugal (after all, Napoleon had been driven out of Portugal in 1811, so its realistic for Nappy to give on that), an end of the Continental system, recognition of British control over Malta, the independence of Sicily and Sardinia and maybe some kind of compensation over Hanover and to the House of Orange. On the flip side, Napoleon would get Britain to withdraw its army and support from Spain, no more financial support for French enemies and maybe some of the occupied French colonies returned.

While some of my ideas for a permanent Napoleonic peace might be wrong, I think they're more in touch with the situation on the ground and what Napoleon would actually accept.
 
6. Finally, only Britain's in a position to give over colonies to France, which I can't see them doing at this point. Although if a permanent peace is established in Europe between Napoleon and the sixth coalition forces, then we could see London finally come to the barging table.

How is there the slightest reason for it to be permanent?

The Allies have been robbed of victory by a fluke, not by military failure. They'll surely resume the war as soon as they've got their breath back.
 
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