That Wacky Redhead

[Roger Redux]

For example, George C Scott played Scrooge in the 1984 adaption of the story.

I don't think I've seen that one actually.

But then I only the old Albert Finney one for the first time last year (despite having seen a clip of it in a multi-trailer "also on VHS from this publisher" montage for many years on my grandma's old B&W copy of The Miracle on 34th Street).

 

[Daibhid C]

Also, I have to say that having the Doctor reveal his real name is a bit anachronistic. The whole business of the importance of the Doctor's name was built up by Steve Moffat for the Fiftieth anniversary - it really wasn't a concern in the classic series. There was initially a mystery about who the Doctor was, but that was really answered when the Time Lords were introduced. However apart from some jokes about his aliases (whether "John Smith" or "Doktor Von Wer") the importance of his real name was about the same as that of Spock's full name in Star Trek.

I dunno, I remember debates on the subject in DWM around the early nineties. There was also the supposed Cartmel Masterplan and its determined effort to return some mystery to the Doctor by implying he was ... someone else ... which climaxed in the 25th anniversary with Ace directly asking the Doctor "Who are you?" and getting an enigmatic smile. And then there were the novels, which cheerfully established real names for the Master, the Rani, the War Chief and even the Meddling Monk, but stopped short of the Doctor's name because That Was Different.

I can imagine that ITTL, the different path Doctor Who has taken since 1971 could have made this thread more blatant. I suspect it still probably wasn't something the majority of the audience were concerned by, but it's pretty clear these guys weren't writing for the majority of the audience.

 

[NCW8]

I dunno, I remember debates on the subject in DWM around the early nineties. There was also the supposed Cartmel Masterplan and its determined effort to return some mystery to the Doctor by implying he was ... someone else ... which climaxed in the 25th anniversary with Ace directly asking the Doctor "Who are you?" and getting an enigmatic smile. And then there were the novels, which cheerfully established real names for the Master, the Rani, the War Chief and even the Meddling Monk, but stopped short of the Doctor's name because That Was Different.

Sure, but most of that discussion is the equivalent to the ST fan discussion of Spock's name and the revelation in a novel that it is S'chn T'gai Spock. The Cartmel Master Plan would have revealed that the Doctor was one of the founding fathers of Time Lord power, known only as "The Other" - which basically means recreating the mystery of who the Doctor was, but isn't exactly concerned with his actual name.

Generally, the closest the classic series got to the subject would be introductions that would go something like this:

X: Who are you ?
Doctor: I'm the Doctor.
X: Doctor Who ?
Doctor: Just "the Doctor".

And then on with the story.

I can imagine that ITTL, the different path Doctor Who has taken since 1971 could have made this thread more blatant. I suspect it still probably wasn't something the majority of the audience were concerned by, but it's pretty clear these guys weren't writing for the majority of the audience.

Possibly, but season-long story arcs were somewhat experimental at that time (The Key to Time and The Trial of a Time Lord are the main examples). The Cartmel Master Plan was the first attempt to do a multi-season arc and it didn't really get very far. I don't think that they would have tried to create a multi-season arc in the early Eighties ITTL, but they might have done it as a season arc - especially if they knew in advance that it was the last season. In which case, I suspect that most fans would be disappointed about the actual revelation. I can see a revived series using this as an example of "Remember Rule One - The Doctor Lies".


Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Mr Teufel]

Thank you Brainbin for your updates! For some reason I stopped getting notifications until just now.

 

[Miss Teri]

I was going to wait to ask this, but I might as well ask now:

Have you considered doing a "Where are they now?" circa 1985 to discuss people who aren't discussed in the TL proper, because they aren't relevant to the topics discussed?

 

[Daibhid C]

Sure, but most of that discussion is the equivalent to the ST fan discussion of Spock's name and the revelation in a novel that it is S'chn T'gai Spock. The Cartmel Master Plan would have revealed that the Doctor was one of the founding fathers of Time Lord power, known only as "The Other" - which basically means recreating the mystery of who the Doctor was, but isn't exactly concerned with his actual name.

Well, it kind of is, in that it recognises that there's something important about the fact he doesn't have one - even the person he "really" is doesn't have one! (And there's no other reason why the Other didn't have a name; his contemporaries Rassilon and Omega did.) Spock's name is "unpronounceable to humans", the Doctor's is fundamentally absent. And fandom has an instinctive desire to poke at fundamental absences.

I suspect that most fans would be disappointed about the actual revelation. I can see a revived series using this as an example of "Remember Rule One - The Doctor Lies".

Absolutely. Or maybe, if it's someone like RTD or the Moff, skipping over it in the same way as the revived series OTL does with half-human ... maybe someone says "It is said that your real name is the Gallifreyan word for 'Doctor'" and he replies "Yes, I think I heard that somewhere as well, it's an interesting theory, isn't it?" before changing the subject.

 

[Brainbin]

Happy New Year, everyone! Here's hoping that 2016 will be an even better year than 2015 in every respect. For one thing, it'll be the year That Wacky Redhead is finally completed. Seriously, if this TL isn't finished by July 22, 2016 (to pull a purely random date out of the air), then I intend to abandon it completely. An extreme self-imposed ultimatum, yes, but one which I feel is necessary. Besides, only one more cycle to go after I finish the next update. And I will, soon. (But not today.) It's been one heck of a ride so far, and I have all of you to thank for joining me!

That made me laugh. I'm curious to know how film criticism is in this world. What with science fiction even more accepted and all.

Baby Boomers as a generation are more inclined to take science-fiction seriously (I think it's no coincidence that Star Wars and Close Encounters became hits when they did), and many young Baby Boomer critics, such as Gene Siskel (and late Silents, such as Roger Ebert), are on the ascent in this era as well, displacing the previous, less populist and more pretentious "Kael generation" of critics. (Even the Pulitzer Prize-winning Roger "one of my favourite movies is some obscure Japanese film you've never heard of" Ebert would unabashedly give movies with lead actresses he found attractive better reviews. Siskel even commented on this a few times on their show - IOTL and ITTL - to hilarious effect: "If you like the girl, date her, don't give the picture a positive review".)

Oh, and another thing: can you tell us who the Presidents are post-1986?

Figuring that out is something I've never troubled myself with, since the TL ends in 1986. I will say that I envision the 1988 Democratic primaries to be a VP Carter vs. Sen. DeAngelo contest. Why do I mention this? Probably because that's what most pundits in the mid-1980s see 1988 looking like. But you never know, surprise frontrunners emerge all the time...

Since I know you're Canadian, happy Boxing Day!

Thank you! I enjoyed the day off I received as a result of it, as I always do. (We don't actually do anything for Boxing Day, except perhaps go shopping.)

On a separate, random seasonal subject - inspired by watching the Muppets Christmas Carol. Assuming that this film is made ITTL, who would get cast as Scrooge. Without OTL's British connection, they're more likely to cast an American actor rather than Michael Caine, but who could do the best job of playing the role without being upstaged by Kermit and Co?

IOTL, the film was made after 1986, and therefore that question is irrelevant, so let your imagination take flight!

I will say that a lot of you have been mentioning various adaptations of A Christmas Carol, and yet none of you have mentioned the definitive screen adaptation, which is of course 1951's Scrooge, starring Alastair Sim, the definitive Ebenezer Scrooge. I can't help but be reminded of Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka. If Johnny Depp's performance as Wonka in the more recent (and more lavish) Burton adaptation was good for anything, it was in proving that Wilder is Wonka, and all of the many people who have essayed the role of Scrooge since 1951 have only succeeded in proving that Sim is Scrooge.

Such an ignominious end for Doctor Who in this reality, definitely makes it just a "visit, don't live there" timeline - already was thanks to the different Supreme Court ruling on home recording, actually. I think the last creative team for the show here will not be getting even devil's advocate defenses like John Nathan Turner does IOTL, and for good reason.

Welcome aboard, Finn! And yes, as I have explained many times, I never said I was writing a utopia!

Also I actually feel bad for this timeline's BBC exec who cancelled it. Yes it was short-sighted - he should have just retooled it, Verity Lambert would have probably come back since she tried to get the rights IOTL back in the 90's - but it seems pretty clear there was no personal ax-grinding on their part like there was for Michael Grade and his cronies.

Don't feel too bad for Lewin - he is now the BBC Director-General, after all, and though he won't be knighted by the Queen, he'll still probably get a life peerage eventually.

Also, I have to say that having the Doctor reveal his real name is a bit anachronistic. The whole business of the importance of the Doctor's name was built up by Steve Moffat for the Fiftieth anniversary - it really wasn't a concern in the classic series. There was initially a mystery about who the Doctor was, but that was really answered when the Time Lords were introduced. However apart from some jokes about his aliases (whether "John Smith" or "Doktor Von Wer") the importance of his real name was about the same as that of Spock's full name in Star Trek.

My reasoning is that since the man (well, Time Lord) was dying, he should want his proper name recorded for posterity.

Thank you Brainbin for your updates! For some reason I stopped getting notifications until just now.

You're very welcome, Mr Teufel! I suspect the forum has been having considerable difficulty with notifications, since I (naturally) have an instant email subscription to this thread, and I don't always get emails when there's a new post (and yes, I know you only get the email with the first new post to the thread since you checked it last). On at least one occasion I haven't even gotten an email to inform me of a new PM. So it's definitely a structural thing which is wholly beyond my control.

Have you considered doing a "Where are they now?" circa 1985 to discuss people who aren't discussed in the TL proper, because they aren't relevant to the topics discussed?

It's funny, because "WATN?" segments are actually a long-standing tradition on this forum - one of the TLs that inspired TWR, A World of Laughter, A World of Tears by statichaos, was famous for them, and featured them throughout his TL. As for myself, I'd prefer waiting until I've finished with the meat of my TL before I indulge in a "WATN?", if only because you never know who might show up in one of my upcoming updates, and you wouldn't want me to spoil the surprise, now would you?

 

[Gordian]

Brainbin, has Kirk Allen done anything outside of Superman?

 

[Miss Teri]

It's funny, because "WATN?" segments are actually a long-standing tradition on this forum - one of the TLs that inspired TWR, A World of Laughter, A World of Tears by statichaos, was famous for them, and featured them throughout his TL. As for myself, I'd prefer waiting until I've finished with the meat of my TL before I indulge in a "WATN?", if only because you never know who might show up in one of my upcoming updates, and you wouldn't want me to spoil the surprise, now would you?

Fair enough. I'm willing to wait until you finish the TL. I was just wondering about a few people that probably aren't going to be mentioned, but like you said, you never know who will be mentioned.

Here's an inquiry, Is the run of Kolchak: the Night Stalker OTL, or does the show not exist?

 

[NCW8]

My reasoning is that since the man (well, Time Lord) was dying, he should want his proper name recorded for posterity.

It's interesting that you think the Doctor would be killed off at the end of the series. After all, it's not the sort of thing that was done in a children's show.


Cheers,
Nigel

 

[Richter10]

Did the last episode of the 1983's Dungeons and Dragons cartoon get made ITTL?

Did the movies Wargames and TRON get made at all? If so, how they were received?

 

[JonInSpaec1973]

I've been reading this off and on since 2012. It's awesome! Congrats on your work, Brainbin...I must say, though, I'm not totally read up since about 1973, at least as far as memory goes. I'm vaguely following...but Doctor Who is over?! I just got here

 

[Miss Teri]

Here's a comic related question you could answer.

Gold Key was prominent in the early Star Trek merchandising updates. However, it generally declined in the late 70's, primarily because of a general downturn in the entire industry, and lost the Star Trek license in 1979. With several revival attempts failed, Gold Key's parent company Western eventually ceased the Gold Key imprint entirely. With Gold Key (and presumably Western) now under Desilu previsions, do any of those events still happen, or does Gold Key survive into the 80's.

 

[Glen]

Thus concludes the history of Doctor Who ITTL.

It would have been hard to get me to love any alternate history post where Doctor Who ends - and especially one where the Doctor is killed off. You've done some amazing work ITTL which challenged preconceived notions in good ways.

I hope I'm not being hypercritical because of my own passion for the venerable series, but there were a few things about this that seemed a bit forced to me - the hypercritical fan showrunners running it into the ground, the most obnoxious companion ever devised, and the description of all the reasons that any possible audience would be distracted by other pop culture offerings. In a way, I think maybe you went overboard in trying to justify ending the series, possibly due to anticipation of the kind of criticism it might come under by fans of the show. Ironically, I think it would have been relatively easy to make an argument for the series being ended without all that - series end all the time, even long running ones.

Overall, though, I hold your work in the greatest esteem.

 

[JonInSpaec1973]

It would have been hard to get me to love any alternate history post where Doctor Who ends - and especially one where the Doctor is killed off. You've done some amazing work ITTL which challenged preconceived notions in good ways.

I hope I'm not being hypercritical because of my own passion for the venerable series, but there were a few things about this that seemed a bit forced to me - the hypercritical fan showrunners running it into the ground, the most obnoxious companion ever devised, and the description of all the reasons that any possible audience would be distracted by other pop culture offerings. In a way, I think maybe you went overboard in trying to justify ending the series, possibly due to anticipation of the kind of criticism it might come under by fans of the show. Ironically, I think it would have been relatively easy to make an argument for the series being ended without all that - series end all the time, even long running ones.

Overall, though, I hold your work in the greatest esteem.

Honestly, as a fan myself, one who keeps up on all the latest whines (mainly to mock folks lol)...it seemed like the sort of scenario people predicted with Clara Who (gah!), Moffat's schedule and terrible writing (anything but!) and rugby moving the time slot. The same one they predict every time. Maybe I'm just going pareidolic, but I think the strongest argument there was the microcomputer market share and Star Trek fandom continuing to exist in syndicated form as well in the UK. Those might have done it, if an Adric/Six scenario had occurred combined with Levine and a fatigued Baker...which basically, it did, so I'll give him that. Especially since it seems like shows don't ever really go away in TWR.

Sophie Aldred for First Second Doctor

 

[Daibhid C]

I hope I'm not being hypercritical because of my own passion for the venerable series, but there were a few things about this that seemed a bit forced to me - the hypercritical fan showrunners running it into the ground, the most obnoxious companion ever devised.

It's not a million miles away from OTL, really. We had Ian Levine claiming to speak for the entire fandom and becoming what TARDIS Eruditorum called "the fan-industrial complex" and then we had Andrew Cartmel; a showrunner who was a fan, but who luckily realised that his fannishness wasn't the be-all and end-all of the series. We had Adric, who was generally disliked for being a know-all kid, and then we had Whizzkid, who was thankfully a one-off character, but showed that even Cartmel wasn't above the sort of thinking that ITTL led to Billy.

I was a huge Doctor Who fan growing up in the eighties, but it had its problems, and it's easy to imagine them becoming bad enough to cancel it, even in the absence of fundamentalist-Thatcherite BBC bosses who hate science fiction.

 

[Glen]

Honestly, as a fan myself, one who keeps up on all the latest whines (mainly to mock folks lol)...it seemed like the sort of scenario people predicted with Clara Who (gah!), Moffat's schedule and terrible writing (anything but!) and rugby moving the time slot. The same one they predict every time. Maybe I'm just going pareidolic, but I think the strongest argument there was the microcomputer market share and Star Trek fandom continuing to exist in syndicated form as well in the UK. Those might have done it, if an Adric/Six scenario had occurred combined with Levine and a fatigued Baker...which basically, it did, so I'll give him that. Especially since it seems like shows don't ever really go away in TWR.

Sophie Aldred for First Second Doctor

It's not a million miles away from OTL, really. We had Ian Levine claiming to speak for the entire fandom and becoming what TARDIS Eruditorum called "the fan-industrial complex" and then we had Andrew Cartmel; a showrunner who was a fan, but who luckily realised that his fannishness wasn't the be-all and end-all of the series. We had Adric, who was generally disliked for being a know-all kid, and then we had Whizzkid, who was thankfully a one-off character, but showed that even Cartmel wasn't above the sort of thinking that ITTL led to Billy.

I was a huge Doctor Who fan growing up in the eighties, but it had its problems, and it's easy to imagine them becoming bad enough to cancel it, even in the absence of fundamentalist-Thatcherite BBC bosses who hate science fiction.

I would point out that contrary to popular culture opinion, having people who grew up fans shaping the destiny of the television series has not destroyed the franchise (nor others for that matter).

I agree that the show could get bad enough if poorly led and poorly funded to be canceled, especially with added competition. In a way, I guess my problem with the post is that it seems to have gone overboard - it would have taken less to actually lead to the show's demise. Meh, maybe I'm just being oversensitive...I'll get over it.

 

[NCW8]

I agree that the show could get bad enough if poorly led and poorly funded to be canceled, especially with added competition. In a way, I guess my problem with the post is that it seems to have gone overboard - it would have taken less to actually lead to the show's demise. Meh, maybe I'm just being oversensitive...I'll get over it.

I think you're right. IOTL, when ITV started broadcasting Buck Rogers in the same timeslot, the viewing figures for Doctor Who dropped from over ten million to just over five million. If that had happened under a less sympathetic controller, then it could have resulted in the show being cancelled. IOTL, Doctor Who was moved to a weekday evening timeslot and viewing figures recovered.


Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Glen]

I think you're right. IOTL, when ITV started broadcasting Buck Rogers in the same timeslot, the viewing figures for Doctor Who dropped from over ten million to just over five million. If that had happened under a less sympathetic controller, then it could have resulted in the show being cancelled. IOTL, Doctor Who was moved to a weekday evening timeslot and viewing figures recovered.


Cheers,
Nigel.

Fascinating about Buck Rogers (which I enjoyed as a child enormously) - basically split the sci-fi audience, probably with the older ones going for the more violence & sex in Rogers.

 

[Daibhid C]

I would point out that contrary to popular culture opinion, having people who grew up fans shaping the destiny of the television series has not destroyed the franchise (nor others for that matter).

Absolutely, as I said about Cartmel (yes, it was cancelled, but that wasn't his fault), and it's also true of RTD and Moffat. Because they're the sort of fans who can take a step back from being fans and think "But never mind what I want, what's best for the show?"

ITTL, it looks like the series was being run by the other kind of fan. The kind who, IOTL, were (and. from what JonInSpaec1973 says, are still) complaining that RTD and Moff ruined the series and it was actually better when it was cancelled because you didn't have all these non-fans daring to have opinions about it.

I think you're right. IOTL, when ITV started broadcasting Buck Rogers in the same timeslot, the viewing figures for Doctor Who dropped from over ten million to just over five million. If that had happened under a less sympathetic controller, then it could have resulted in the show being cancelled. IOTL, Doctor Who was moved to a weekday evening timeslot and viewing figures recovered..

Leading to The Other Kind of Fans complaining that Doctor Who was meant to be on Saturdays, dammit, and never mind the realities of the situation. If 5 million people preferred Buck Rogers that just proved they weren't proper fans, so why waste time worrying about them?

(Sorry, I was on rec.arts.drwho for many years until I decided "Life's too short". I have developed strong opinions about these people...)