No nazis and Weimar Republic survives

I have been pondering what would have happened if somehow the Nazi party did not come to power, instead the Weimar Republic had been strengthened and a centrist party or coalition had come to power in the thirties instead of either the facists or the communists?

My own personal theory is that the second world war would have happened anyway. If instead of invading the surrounding germanic areas/nations the germans had built even a loose alliance including Poland, Austria and maybe the chezks(sp?) Russia is going to start getting nervous.

Basically the 2nd World War would happen later than OTL and would the USSR/Communist China vs Germany/Britain(And Empire)/France/Japan(maybe)

I'll work on it

I dunno.... Stalin always seemed fairly careful to me. What's with the sudden change?

That said, a surviving Weimar republic would be interesting. It's not the sort of thign we often see.

Two simplistic ways for this to happen - Nazi party collapses after Beer Hall Putsch or no/vastly reduced Wall Street Crash. Removing Hitler AND Gobbels from the Nazi party would also work well.

WW2 wouldn't be inevitable but it's possible with several dictatorships in Europe. Italy is a dictatorship and Poland is only a few short steps from that itself. Yugoslavia and Romania are dictatorships in all but name. Stalin - assuming he remains in power - would be anxious to recover land from Finland and Poland and there could be a clash there. However, the man seemed incapable of stealth and any moves in that direction would be spotted and momentary crises would probably be diffused.

If Germany with a moderate leader behaves itself, then parts of the Versailles treaty might be repealed in favour of the Germans.

The Saarland might vote to go to France without strong Nazi leadership and propaganda in 1935 which puts France in a better economic position.

The Spanish civil war will still go ahead but with only Italian support, Franco's position wouldn't be as strong and the war would drag on past 1938.

If Hitler didn't come to power, one question to ask is how would this have effected military development? Would Germany have created a Panzer force and formulated the 'Blitzkrieg' technique? Would the Luftwaffe (AF) have been more balanced under a different leadership? In terms of naval development would Germany have focused its building plans on a different type of navy and would U-boats have played a larger/smaller role?
To some extend the capabilities of the military play into the larger picture of international relationships.
Germany was 'afraid' of the USSR. I don't think that would have changed. Would Stalin have been more 'agressive' in his relationship with the western border nations?
For example, could a situation were Germany came to the aid of Poland when the USSR invaded it be a reality?

Perhaps Hitler is killed in a gas attack in World War I. The Nazi Party collapses in the 1920s and another Conservative Party takes its place. I cant remember the name of the party but it was third in the elections that put Hitler in power, it advocated returning the monarchy and was conservative enough wanting to return Germany to the kind of power it had before it lost the war.

ljofa said:

The Saarland might vote to go to France without strong Nazi leadership and propaganda in 1935 which puts France in a better economic position.

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I would seriously doubt this.
1. For every german government, getting the Saar back would be a key issue, and therefore a place for major propaganda efforts.

2. you have there strong organised labour (coal miners) and political catholicsm, two groups opposed to national socialism.
So I´d say the appeal of returning to the Reich will be even bigger if it´s not ruled by lunatics.

3. Even after ww2, 2/3 of the voters rejected the Saar statute at the ballot box.

So changing this gets us into ASB territory.

Johnestauffer said:

If Hitler didn't come to power, one question to ask is how would this have effected military development? Would Germany have created a Panzer force and formulated the 'Blitzkrieg' technique? Would the Luftwaffe (AF) have been more balanced under a different leadership? In terms of naval development would Germany have focused its building plans on a different type of navy and would U-boats have played a larger/smaller role?
To some extend the capabilities of the military play into the larger picture of international relationships.
Germany was 'afraid' of the USSR. I don't think that would have changed. Would Stalin have been more 'agressive' in his relationship with the western border nations?
For example, could a situation were Germany came to the aid of Poland when the USSR invaded it be a reality?

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rearmament would surely have been a prime concern for most governments. It was a vote winner, the social democrats had to experience this when they put forward a plebiscite "armored cruisers or school milk".


Blitzkrieg & Panzertruppen:

the strategic outlook doesn´t change when the nazis are not around. the treaty of versailles limits the defence capabilities, and IIRC the military establishment was sure it couldn´t win a war with france and it´s tchechoslovakian and polish allies.

this brings us to the air force question: If you are going to fight a defensive war, you don´t need a big strategic bomber fleet, simply because
the light and medium bombers built for close support can also reach prague.

the navy: I would say the naval build- up depends largely on the percepted threats. If poland, tchechoslovakia, France and/or Italy are seen as the potential enemy, the Navy will largely get smaller crafts, capital assets along the Deutschland class and ongoing replacements of the old battleships that where allowed at versailles, simply as coastal protection will be the most (and nearly only possible role)

For one thing, we would not have that wonderful invention that allows this forum to exist. Civil Rights would be about thirty years behind. A fascist party would probably still have arisen in Germany. The US would not be the superpower it is today, and 75% of Europe would be communist.

Count Deerborn said:

For one thing, we would not have that wonderful invention that allows this forum to exist. Civil Rights would be about thirty years behind. A fascist party would probably still have arisen in Germany. The US would not be the superpower it is today, and 75% of Europe would be communist.

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Are you sure this posting is related to the topic?

For one thing, we would not have that wonderful invention that allows this forum to exist. Civil Rights would be about thirty years behind. A fascist party would probably still have arisen in Germany. The US would not be the superpower it is today, and 75% of Europe would be communist.

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Okay I'm a little confused, how would the disappearance of the Nazi party from the timeline prevent the invention of the Internet? Or result in a Communist Europe?

To flesh out my original premise a bit more, the Wiemar Republic manages to survive the turbulent 1920-1933 period and is in fact strengthened. Two areas allow this, instead of Brunig halting nearly all public spending by the government a series of massive public works are instituted - Autobahns etc etc. The other area is the absence of a viable Nazi party. Hitler is not on the political scene having either been killed during the first world war or the civil war that tore Germany apart immediately following WW1, either that or he decides that architechture and painting is a career he can follow.

After the economy recovers constitutional reform can take place, such as limiting the ability for the Reichspräsident to issue arbitrary decrees limited by parliamentary oversight.

Rearmament can still happen as Europe is still an unsettled place and in fact Britain might even subtly support the concept of a re armed Germany facing off against the Soviet threat from the east. France might have issues, but this depends on the ideology of the governments in place in both nations at the time.

The reason why I think the 2nd World War would still have happened. However the match ups would have been very different. A resurgent Germany allied with the rest of the western world on its door stop is going to make Stalin nervous, this along with the unresolved Polish question and Stalins overwhelming need to reconquer Finland is going to throw enough sparks to set off at least a Wart big enough to engulf europe, if not the rest of the world.

Well thats it for the moment, I'll ponder it some more and see what comes up

Well, one of the things that might help the Weimar government would be making it more "conservative" when it is formed, making it more attractive to the powerful interests in Germany at the time. The main reason that Weimar didn't survive was that everyone with actual power in postwar Germany (i.e. the military, the aristocracy, and the corporate interests) hated it with a passion. With support of these groups, the government might be able to cement its control a little more.

Mind you, it'll still be saddled with the "shameful peace" of Versailles. Don't see how they can get that monkey off their backs.

Was there any chance that the Kaiser, or perhaps his son after his abdication, might have ended up with blame for the defeat and Versailes and the Repbublic could have emerged in 1919?

Would that have helped the Democratic Government to survive?

(Obviously is a certain Mr Hitler had not been born or had died in WW1 that would have been helpful)

I do NOT think that Stalin would actively have started a war. It would have been a big risk. If he had he would have been at War with the whole World and would have lost. He was evil but he was NOT and idiot or suicidal.

WW2 did speed up technological change.

On the other hand the circumstances which led to the Pacific War would still apply

German Expansionism becomes Russian Expansionism

I think a European War between the USSR and Western Europe is still a possibility. Remember Russia still coveted FInland in the north as well as Poland. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact had ceded half of Poland to the Russians, as well as Finland and the Baltic states.

It is quite possible that once Stalin had finished purging the party of dissidents he could have turned to wards expanding the Soviet Union, both east and west. Especially if there is a strong united German state sitting almost on his door step allied with the Western - anti-communist- powers.

Here's a potential matchup list:

Allies:

• Britain/Empire
• Germany/Austria
• France/Belgium/Holland
• Finland

Soviets:

• Russia
• Communist China
• Baltic States

I haven't thought much about how the pacific war would fit in to this scenario but off the top of my head, Japan might feel more threatened by a strong Soviet/China alliance than the Americans meaning that the pacific war as we know it might not actually occur, instead of Pearl Harbour being bombed it might be Port Arthur.

The war might have started later, and as the computer grew out of the cryptography devices of WWII, the computer as was know it would probably appear later. Thus, in this world, as of 2005, the Internet would still be part of DARPA, and not open to the public.

cranos said:

ISoviets:

• Russia
• Communist China
• Baltic States

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Bright day
What? Baltic states supporting Soviets? In OTL they very eagerly joined the National Socialists, how come they join hated Soviets here???

Count Deerborn said:

The war might have started later, and as the computer grew out of the cryptography devices of WWII, the computer as was know it would probably appear later. Thus, in this world, as of 2005, the Internet would still be part of DARPA, and not open to the public.

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you´re forgetting the basic rule of communications: every possible invention is used to distribute pictures of naked women.

Gladi said:

Bright day
What? Baltic states supporting Soviets? In OTL they very eagerly joined the National Socialists, how come they join hated Soviets here???

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My bad I had forgotten about that. Mind you I do think that the USSR could convievably handle an invasion of Europe on its own considering the raw man power it had at its disposal as well as the superior tank technology it possessed.

Not really.
1. Without the lend-lease i doubt they have the logistical capabilities and equipment.
2. When they enter Poland, they are on end of a long supply chain.

Steffen said:

Not really.
1. Without the lend-lease i doubt they have the logistical capabilities and equipment.
2. When they enter Poland, they are on end of a long supply chain.

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Depends on the POD, it is possible to say have Stalin prepare for war since the early to mid 1930s, but this would require a change in his character. However if he started in say 1934, and began the war around 1940 they would be in good position to invade Europe. I dont think they could win though.

POD

The POD is really a bunch of them. The main ones being the non-existance of a viable Nazi/fascist force in German politics and the survival and strengthening of the Wiemar Republic.

With regards to Stalins willingness to go to war, I think if he felt threatened enough by events in Western Europe and maybe by Japanese expansionism in the east he might decide that a pre-emptive strike against either would force the world to back off.

This combined with territorial claims over the Baltic states (Yes I know I stuffed that one up), Finland and Poland could very well lead to a 2nd World War Scenario, only later on in the century, maybe the late 1940's to early 1950's, especially if Japan finds alternate sources of oil, steel, coal etc etc and decides not to "wake the sleeping giant".