Ming America: Whither Europe?

Faeelin

Banned
Let us posit a TL where the glorious emissaries of the Dragon Throne continue to explore the Indian Ocean, and ultimately reach America. While the Aztecas are made quick work of, the people of the Andes region end up as distant tributaries; who happen to love metallurgy.

So, Europe's short the tons of silver and gold it got from the New World, and China, which desperately needed silver for a currency, and traded its goods for it, now doesn't need Europe as much.

Does this short circuit the European role in the world economy?
 
Sure. But I'm wondering if there is trade route-system that can be built in the Pacific Ocean like the ones Europeans built in the Atlantic. The Pacific is a much vaster ocean and the West Coast of the Americas is much less hospitable to landing craft...

What could be really cool is if the Native Americans discover Europe, first!
 
The Kuro-Siwo current is pretty much easy to follow once it is dicovered. That's how the Spanish galleons traveled from Asia to Mexico in OTL.
 
im not entirely sure what it would happen to spain. Spain in the short one benifited from the treasure acculmated from the New World but it enventually destroyed the value of Silver by releasing it all into the market (similarly diamonds would be worthless if De Beers released them all at once). this could happen to the Chinese if they dont melt it down to make coins.
 

Keenir

Banned
Let us posit a TL where the glorious emissaries of the Dragon Throne continue to explore the Indian Ocean, and ultimately reach America.

Does this short circuit the European role in the world economy?

well, it improves the situation for the Ottomans -- much of their financial troubles* stemmed from all that Spanish gold and silver ruining prices all across Europe.

* = including a great many groups of brigands, which were mostly comprised by soldiers who were out of work.
 
Could the Chinese plausibly expand beyond the Rockies? It took Europeans/their offshoots until the 19th century to do it.
 
Out of curiosity, why are the natives (not necessarily even the aztecs) made short work of again? I'm not hearing anything about guns and armored troops here.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Granted, my Chinese history is nill, but I thought China was infamous for not going into gunpowder warfare.

They fell behind; but they used them; they just got lazy in the middle to late Ming, and then Qing.

Around 1510, if you're envisioning a China with a maritime orientation, it's about equal.
 
They fell behind; but they used them; they just got lazy in the middle to late Ming, and then Qing.

Around 1510, if you're envisioning a China with a maritime orientation, it's about equal.

I suppose I can grant you this (even if the two aren't necessarily linked), but a Chinese presence in Central America starting in 1510 doesn't exclude a European presence. Spain might not get all of the Americas, but it can still easily get the Eastern portion. Nor does a Chinese presence equate conqest; unless I've been getting the wrong impression from people like Hendyke, China preferred absolute influence over conquest, unlike the Europeans. If China isn't there to stop Cortez, and putting an entire Chinese army in Mexico after landfall in 1510 is extreme, then Cortez (and Europe) can still run around in the Americas.

Besides, Cortez got lucky with the Aztecs because they thought he was their god because of the year, and his interpreter woman. The Aztecs had the ability to crush Cortez at any real point, and the Chinese wouldn't luck out so, both because of the year and the initial lack of interpreter.
 

Faeelin

Banned
I suppose I can grant you this

Am I wrong? I'm curious.

Spain might not get all of the Americas, but it can still easily get the Eastern portion. Nor does a Chinese presence equate conqest; unless I've been getting the wrong impression from people like Hendyke, China preferred absolute influence over conquest, unlike the Europeans.

Depends. As a counterexample, see the Ming efforts to subdue Vietnam.

If China isn't there to stop Cortez, and putting an entire Chinese army in Mexico after landfall in 1510 is extreme, then Cortez (and Europe) can still run around in the Americas.

Cuba and Florida; doesn't seem quite as nice as silver mines, especially since the sugar industry wans't set up in Cuba until the 17th century.

Besides, Cortez got lucky with the Aztecs because they thought he was their god because of the year, and his interpreter woman. The Aztecs had the ability to crush Cortez at any real point, and the Chinese wouldn't luck out so, both because of the year and the initial lack of interpreter.

Mmm. The story about the year plays a part, but a bigger part was strange foreigners with the weapons of the god who were able to play the diplomatic game with finesse, and the Chinese could get an interpretter, and presumably smallpox would ravage the empire like it did in OTL.

Of course, smallpox ravaged ironworking Chinese vassals is still quite different from what the Spanish met.
 

Keenir

Banned
Nor does a Chinese presence equate conqest; unless I've been getting the wrong impression from people like Hendyke, China preferred absolute influence over conquest, unlike the Europeans.

but the Aztecs (et al) don't have the advantage that the Koreans and Thai did -- not only are there no familiar (to the Chinese) religions in the Aztecs regions, but after going as far as this, Chinese officials back home are going to want something to show for their efforts.
 
Am I wrong? I'm curious.
Not wrong, but not necessarily right either. It would be a question for those with detailed knowledge in the matter, which is neither you nor I. Does having a strong naval tradition push the adoption of gunpowder among one's army? Or at least would it make the Chinese gun technology be on the same level as the Europeans, who had been fighting gun wars among themselves for a good while now? Especially as China would have been unified for a while now?



Depends. As a counterexample, see the Ming efforts to subdue Vietnam.

Key word being Vietnam, which is close, rather than the Americas, which are far far away. Naval explorations would likely follow the relatively unpopulated west coast, which isn't very profitable without masses to work it, before China could even get to the populated Central America. If China hasn't subdued its own neighbors closer to it (Japan I think, the Philippines I'm pretty sure of), somewhere so far off will be a much lower priority.


Cuba and Florida; doesn't seem quite as nice as silver mines, especially since the sugar industry wans't set up in Cuba until the 17th century.

Who's saying Cuba and Florida? I was talking about Central America (maybe closer towards Panama), and then there's always South America as well. Besides, so what if China landed on the Pacific Coast first? Its only yours if you can hold it, and if Spain comes with troops while China can't hold it, suddenly it belongs to Spain.


Mmm. The story about the year plays a part, but a bigger part was strange foreigners with the weapons of the god who were able to play the diplomatic game with finesse, and the Chinese could get an interpretter, and presumably smallpox would ravage the empire like it did in OTL.

Don't forget La Malinche (who knew both languages fluently from the start of the Aztec invasion) as well, who played a very heavy roll in that "finesse" (Cortez himself wasn't exactly subtle or kind). Even should China find its own interpreter, China isn't guaranteed a diplomatic coup either. China could make the mistake of picking the wrong side in an attempt to be subtle rather than outright conquest, in which case China is in a much worse position.

About smallpox, though, I don't know (how strong/comunicable was smallpox in China?). On one hand, it could do as you say. On another, might different Chinese practices cause a different effect? You'll have massive die offs sooner or later, but if its later rather than sooner...

Of course, smallpox ravaged ironworking Chinese vassals is still quite different from what the Spanish met.
 
but the Aztecs (et al) don't have the advantage that the Koreans and Thai did -- not only are there no familiar (to the Chinese) religions in the Aztecs regions, but after going as far as this, Chinese officials back home are going to want something to show for their efforts.

Gifts of gold? The Aztecs would have given that without a war. Slaves/emmisionaries? Same there. Nice sounding words of respect? Why not.

What would needed to be shown that couldn't be freely given, except conquest? And even conquest can take place elsewhere, either farther north or south (though population patterns make seizing empty land a very glorious thing).

Besides, unless you intend to enslave the natives anyway, the Americas aren't the place to go to make a quick profit. Spanish wealth from the Americas consisted of enslaving the natives and working them to death to mine and ship gold. Anywhere else less populated wasn't valuable. That's likely a good reason why the California gold rush was so late; it was so empty, no one went there because there was no reason until later.

If empty land is your goal, there's always Mongolia and Siberia to civilize. If you want simple population control, the Philippines and Japan are close as well.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Not wrong, but not necessarily right either. It would be a question for those with detailed knowledge in the matter, which is neither you nor I. Does having a strong naval tradition push the adoption of gunpowder among one's army? Or at least would it make the Chinese gun technology be on the same level as the Europeans, who had been fighting gun wars among themselves for a good while now? Especially as China would have been unified for a while now?

I think to answer this you need to know more about China's military technology in the 16th century.

I don't think at this point in time it's an appreciable difference; it becomes more later on, at a point when China could easily adopt European firepower and armaments (and presumably would in this TL), but in any case:

1) Gunpowder weapons are not crucial to the conquest of Mexico when you have horses and iron weapons.
2) China has gunpowder weapons, including cannons, in any case.


Key word being Vietnam, which is close, rather than the Americas, which are far far away. Naval explorations would likely follow the relatively unpopulated west coast, which isn't very profitable without masses to work it, before China could even get to the populated Central America. If China hasn't subdued its own neighbors closer to it (Japan I think, the Philippines I'm pretty sure of), somewhere so far off will be a much lower priority.

This is a bit like saying because Spain didn't subdue Switzerland it wouldn't subdue the Americas, which would be a much lower priority.

Who's saying Cuba and Florida? I was talking about Central America (maybe closer towards Panama), and then there's always South America as well. Besides, so what if China landed on the Pacific Coast first? Its only yours if you can hold it, and if Spain comes with troops while China can't hold it, suddenly it belongs to Spain.

It's a bit of a tie; they'd arrive around the same time, and I suspect the Chinese would be better at getting the natives on their side simply by not forcing them to abandon their faith.

Don't forget La Malinche (who knew both languages fluently from the start of the Aztec invasion) as well, who played a very heavy roll in that "finesse" (Cortez himself wasn't exactly subtle or kind). Even should China find its own interpreter, China isn't guaranteed a diplomatic coup either. China could make the mistake of picking the wrong side in an attempt to be subtle rather than outright conquest, in which case China is in a much worse position.

The Conquest of Mexico would have taken place even if Cortes had failed. Likewise, even if we posit a China that does not get slaves who understand both languages, native cities like Tzintintuan (sp?) will still want to join them.

About smallpox, though, I don't know (how strong/comunicable was smallpox in China?). On one hand, it could do as you say. On another, might different Chinese practices cause a different effect? You'll have massive die offs sooner or later, but if its later rather than sooner...

Why would it be later? Smallpox is smallpox, after all.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Besides, unless you intend to enslave the natives anyway, the Americas aren't the place to go to make a quick profit. Spanish wealth from the Americas consisted of enslaving the natives and working them to death to mine and ship gold. Anywhere else less populated wasn't valuable. That's likely a good reason why the California gold rush was so late; it was so empty, no one went there because there was no reason until later.

I think gold and silver are valuable reasons to conquer a place.

If empty land is your goal, there's always Mongolia and Siberia to civilize. If you want simple population control, the Philippines and Japan are close as well.

Mongolia and Siberia are home to nomads who China pretty much fought for recorded history, and Japan, is, well, Japan; hardly a walkover.

(the Philippines are a better example, but lack gold, a key problem).
 

Philip

Donor
Prevailing Currents

Wouldn't the prevailing currents make it more likely that the Chinese would land somewhere around Oregon?

Kuroshio Current --> North Pacific Drift --> California Current works well for getting from China to North America.
California Current --> North Equatorial Current will bring you back to China.

This seems like the most likely route for them to take. It would roughly expose China to the west coast of the US and Baja California. Is there another set of currents that would make the journey to South America easier?
 

Hendryk

Banned
Of course, smallpox ravaged ironworking Chinese vassals is still quite different from what the Spanish met.
Don't forget influenza, which has been endemic in China ever since the domestication of the pig in the Neolithic. It could be easily as devastating to New World populations as smallpox was in OTL. Besides, as a rule, whatever disease was present in Europe existed as a more virulent strain in China.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Wouldn't the prevailing currents make it more likely that the Chinese would land somewhere around Oregon?
More like Puget Sound if they go north or California if they go south. Meaning they'd soon find the San Francisco Bay, which is as nice a natural harbor as one can hope to come across, and located in a lush region (not to mention one where gold is waiting to be discovered).

When you look at the north Pacific currents, you realize how convenient they would have been from a Chinese perspective. In OTL the Spanish used them to sail from Mexico to the Philippines in one go.

pacific_gyre.jpg
 
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