Operatsiya Morskoi Lev - a Soviet Sealion

Now, I realize that it would take a near-ASB set of occurrences, but let's presume for a moment that Stalin prepares much better for the German invasion in 1941 (possibly with no purges, less persecution mania, and modernization of an army that would by 1940-1941 not only equal, but be superior to the German one), and by November 1941 the Soviet soldiers are plundering Berlin. Let's say Japan suddenly becomes cautious, and does not attack Pearl Harbor - and the US is paralyzed by an isolationist tendency.

This leaves USSR and Britain as the only remaining independent powers in Europe... let's say France falls into a civil war, and Italy switches sides. So, would USSR end up going after Britain, given that continental domination is already theirs? If so, would a Soviet Sealion be any more successful than the planned German one?

Well, if you give them another decade to work up to it and prepare the navy, they'll be capable of it against OTL UK. However, the British won't be exhausted from fighting Germany. And America will probably be sufficiently alarmed by then to conclude some sort of alliance with the British.

Hmmm... the Red Army was quite feared, but the Red Navy? How strong were they? How much experience did they have? Somehow I can't remember ANY operations or such by them.

Max Sinister said:

Hmmm... the Red Army was quite feared, but the Red Navy? How strong were they? How much experience did they have? Somehow I can't remember ANY operations or such by them.

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I can't think offhand. The Imperial Navy in WWI was actually very good - far better than one would assume given the publicity received by the late war mutinies. She had excellent guns, good officers and some very capable ships. She was hampered in the production of capital ships by the fact that essential parts were to have been supplied by German firms. The major problem that prevented the construction of Russia's large battlecruisers in WWII was lack of parts. There weren't enough materials, and those available were substandard and rejected. With most of Europe under her suzerainty, that ceases to be an issue. And we haven't even considered the fact that in this scenario Russia will control not only the raw materials she wants, but also the ports of Germany and France. Give her a decade and she can have a very good fleet.

Imperial Navy? That doesn't say anything. Remember how the French navy became weaker when the aristocrats fled from the revolution. Similar could happen here. And besides, the Czarist fleet wasn't exactly big. AFAIK they were behind every other big power in Europe, incl. A-H and Italy.

Max Sinister said:

Imperial Navy? That doesn't say anything. Remember how the French navy became weaker when the aristocrats fled from the revolution. Similar could happen here. And besides, the Czarist fleet wasn't exactly big. AFAIK they were behind every other big power in Europe, incl. A-H and Italy.

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I don't mean to imply that the performance of the Tsarist-era navy will mean that its successor was good.

As for szie: the fleet would have grown if WWI hadn't intervened. There had been a pretty good clear out of incompetents after the Russo-Japanese War, which had also forced Russia to build a new and superior fleet from scratch. Sadly for them, they never had the time to capitalise on this development . . .

This Russian newbie wants to pipe in...

Yes, it is near-ASB; there are too many changes to predict what could have happened; allying Stalin and Hitler is, in my opinion, much easier to do as an AH.

MrP said:

I can't think offhand. The Imperial Navy in WWI was actually very good - far better than one would assume given the publicity received by the late war mutinies. She had excellent guns, good officers and some very capable ships. ...

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This is true -- for our Black Sea Fleet under Ebergard and Kolchak. It managed to neutralize a German battlecruiser with pre-dreadnought battleships and to undertake a successful cooperation with the Army during the Battle of Trebizond.

The Baltic Fleet? The less said about it, the better.

If the Soviets had control of all of Europe, then I'd think they'd sit back and gather their forces for an attack on Britian. However they may spend a couple of years buiding the navy they would need. All the while, their intelligence forces would be at work undermining the British resolve. We know that Stalin had a massive intelligence network in the US before, during and after the war, so it's no suprise that they would use such a network to cripple the British through economic, political, and militarily. We know that a major figure in British intelligence during this time was in fact a Soviet agent. THe Soviets could find ways of promoting British political figures that were sympethic to the communist cause in to positions of power. It's possible that Stalin could bring down the democratic government in Britian without ever firing a shot.

The Red Navy in 1941 just started to build up. It had only 2? modern cruisers (9x180, 35kn-officailly) and a number of modern destroyers. Most of the fleet was composed of ships remembering Tsarist Russia or started then (like Krasnyj Kavkaz cruiser- started in 1916, finished in... 1931) that were badly maintained to boot. Personally, I don't see a way for Red Navy to do anything similiar (in scale) to Sealion...

midgardmetal said:

This leaves USSR and Britain as the only remaining independent powers in Europe... let's say France falls into a civil war, and Italy switches sides. So, would USSR end up going after Britain, given that continental domination is already theirs? If so, would a Soviet Sealion be any more successful than the planned German one?

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My answer NO. To crach Great Britain sea dominance with every ship of Royal Navy down to fregate and destroyer guarding the Channel, with American supplies ans all help up to deirect military interference, all European materel won't be enough in the short run. Let's put together all warships from the Reich (Including The Tierpiz and all the "pocket battleships"), France, the Netherlands, Soviet Baltic Fleet, even aquiring from Il Duce all those beautiful Italian battleships, cruisers that need serious refurnishment, it will take too much time to collect and build the Envasion Fleet that in any case will not take the English by surprise. It also means the continuation of the WW as the USA would not be going to stay outside and just look from the distance when its last Eurioean Ally is crashed. No, that means that the USA will fight the Soviets. And this also means that instead Hiroshima and Nagasaki we may see Berlin and Leinigrad lying in radioactive ruins after so long.