A Greater Austrian Empire

As above, WI Francis II, first Emperor of Austria, had a healthy child, and one without any genetic disabilities, say an alt-Ferdinand? How might this effect the general rule of the Austrian Empire if this heir was progressive, etc? My eventual goal is the continued existence of the Austrian Empire at its size in 1815, with the Hapsburgs still in power.

Please do comment. Would also appreciate it if people could put up links to previous Austrian Hapsburg threads, can't find them.

Neptune said:

As above, WI Francis II, first Emperor of Austria, had a healthy child, and one without any genetic disabilities, say an alt-Ferdinand? How might this effect the general rule of the Austrian Empire if this heir was progressive, etc? My eventual goal is the continued existence of the Austrian Empire at its size in 1815, with the Hapsburgs still in power.

Please do comment. Would also appreciate it if people could put up links to previous Austrian Hapsburg threads, can't find them.

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The Geheime Staatskonferenz, the sorta-secret sorta-regency council that resulted from OTL Ferdinand being put on the throne effectively shut the monarchy down for two decades as internal squabbles and rivalries (mainly Metternich and Kolowrat, the two of them did not get along) prevented anything from being done. Avoiding that alone is a major step up.

That said, this alt-Ferdinand would fall into a period where major reform of the monarchy was viewed as desireable not just by liberals, but also conservatives. The new Emperor is likely to come in contact with the two primary schools of thought, championed by Kolowrat and Metternich, and would ultimately be in a position to pick one. Metternich, and the conservative establishment, viewed a limited political devolution desireable (with the monarchy being split along the lines of existing Crownlands, with limited local political autonomy) and the establishment of a central Parliament (however crippled, Metternich envisioned it as an advisory body meant for gentlemanly discourse that would result in the best possible advice for the monarchy ... Metternich had some odd ideas on how people worked). Kolowrat, on the other hand, argued for more devolution in the cultural sphere (with Crownlands getting cultural autonomy, but not much political autonomy), embracing the various languages and cultures of the monarchy, but without weakening the monarch's authority overmuch. Either would begin to defuse the powder keg that the monarchy was becoming.

OTL, the Regency shut such things down with Archduke Louis being a supporter of absolutism (with no such silly things as parliaments, though he did side more often with Metternich than Kolowrat) and Archduke Franz Karl who was something of a wet blanket. With an emperor to put his foot down, the reforms (in whatever form) might go through. Metternich in particular would be less of a problem, as he was never willing to stand up the the Emperor (others, yes, the Emperor never). Kolowrat would probably threaten to resign if things didn't go his way ... he did that numerous times previously. Either way, the alt-Ferdinand is in a position to nicely end the two's rivalry, either by accepting Kolowrat's resignation or reigning Metternich in.

Either way, the reforms are hardly the kind of sweeping change liberals would want, but they would offer a solid foundation for future developments. IMO, Metternich's proposals for a proto-federation more so than Kolowrat's, but either is fine.

Thanks for your reply, Keb!

I'm not sure whether a healthy Ferdinand was even possible, given the double first-cousins thing that Francis II and his wife had going on (genetic roulette and all that). If alt-Ferdinand could be born to any other union between Francis and his other wives, who do you think would be his mother otherwise?

I've always been partial to Franz' first wife, Elisabeth Wilhelmine of Württemberg surviving and going on to become a Viennese counterpart to Maria Feodorovna (her sister).

I’m going to try writing a TL based on a functional alt-Ferdinand. The POD here is that Elisabeth of Württemberg isn’t overwhelmed by the terminally ill Joseph II and carries her child to term. As a result, she manages one more child- a boy- and dies giving birth to him, in 1792.

The 43-year-old General Joseph Ferdinand braced his fists on the balcony and stared out, eyes still moist, over the chapel of Hofburg Palace. Below, he knew, his father lay in state; Francis II, Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary, Croatia, Dalmatia, Bohemia and a slew of other titles. But he’d known the great man as Father. Without frills, without pomp or ceremony. Just Father.

Those titles were his now. Those men and women by his coffin were his subjects now. It was now time for Archduke Joseph Ferdinand to assume the myriad crowns of the Austrian Empire and add to his simple rank many more titles. They seemed to him more baggage than assistance, personally. Joseph sighed, and turned around, striding into the interior of the palace.

By his side was his mentor and friend. He was old now, and stooped; but Joseph Radetzky von Radetz had not lost that old sparkle in his eye that he half-reckoned was because he’d been singled out by the heir to the Austrian throne himself. It had taken him quite some time, but eventually Joseph had been allowed to continue his military reforms to the Austrian army. In the years of peace after Napoleon’s defeat and exile, Austria had not been involved in war at all, and so the conclusion to these reforms had not been met by some great test on the field of battle.

“What am I going to do now, Joseph?”

The Czech nobleman, soon to be Minister of War (that would silence all his enemies), quaffed liberally and smiled. “You’ve spoken of your ideas before, haven’t you? Break the power of the Hungarians, reform, reform, reform… Metternich will be willing to go along, I’m sure. How hard could it be, young Joseph?”

“There is a difference between speaking and acting. Let us wait until after the coronation.”

Comments? Suggestions? Anyone want to pick up the slack? I'll probably not be able to keep this up.

At 43 he probably would be holding at least the rank of "Oberst" - that is he would b "Inhaber" of a Regiment of Regulars (at least). He would be no "active" soldier and the day to day affairs of his regiment would be handled by a Colonel/Lieutenant Colonel.

Franz Ferdinand was General at 26 for comparision...

Richter von Manthofen said:

At 43 he probably would be holding at least the rank of "Oberst" - that is he would b "Inhaber" of a Regiment of Regulars (at least). He would be no "active" soldier and the day to day affairs of his regiment would be handled by a Colonel/Lieutenant Colonel.

Franz Ferdinand was General at 26 for comparision...

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Is it spelt Inhaber? What does that rank mean? Thank you for commenting, Richter von Manthofen! Would appreciate your input re: military ranks in the Austrian Empire. I'm just trying to do an Austria-wank.

I like Austro-Wanks - not enough here.

(Regiments)Inhaber is basically the same thing as "Colonel-in-Chief" (in Prussia the equivalent would be "Regimentschef"

Its a honorary position.

While members of the Kaiserhaus get a Military education they are not usually make a career - they will be make a tour through various Units of the Army and then fairly soon promoted to a General rank.

From the diary of Joseph Radetzky von Radetz, dated 2 May 1812.

It seems that I, a humble servant of the Emperor, have found myself in the confidence and friendship of the heir to Austria itself […] he, too, is humble, and takes active delight in partaking in the same hardships as his men, despite his rank […] regularly expresses a desire for Austria to build its army up to a similar standard as that of Prussia. He idolizes Frederick the Great, and thinks himself another great figure in the military. […] he might be behind the gradual increase in funding to the army, as well as the continuous modernization programmes. No- I know so. […] He has encouraged me not to be discouraged by the lack of interest and active animosity to my proposed reforms, and promises that they shall come through as needed. [...] I hope to god that he is right.

From the diary of Joseph Radetzky von Radetz, dated 10 March 1835.

The old Emperor was interred in the Imperial Crypt to-day [...] the coronation of Joseph Ferdinand I shall commence in a month’s time […] through all this time I and my household have not left the new Emperor’s side […] his ideas are radical […] Hungarian nobles must be crushed, he says […] the route to power lies in keeping Italy down, and bringing the Balkans around to our way of thinking […] and when I ask him about Germany, he says nothing. Yet I have faith that he will endear the apparatus of government to him […] for where Metternich goes the rest will follow. […]

Does anyone have any ideas about who Lud should marry? Or should we just stick with Maria Theresa?

Don't know whom you exactly have in mind with Maria Theresa , but I would recommend

Sophie Friederike (Born 1805) of Bavaria.

or

Maria Anna (Born 1803) of Savoy.


Both were married to Habsburgs of his Generation

BTW I don't think Muslims on the Balkans would be of concern. Around 1830 it was clear that the Ottoman Empire was declining I assume the "power" vaccum on the Balkans with Independence movements is of a higher priority.

Also the "crushing" of nobles would be something too revoltutionary for Habsburg in the 1830s - though the Situation will be watched. During the 1820s and 1830s the HAbsburgs should feel quite secure. even in italy.

I assume a new energetic Emperor might adress some social themes

Abolishing serfdom
Acknowledgement that Austria encompasses different cultures (yes that means first steps towards federalisation)

As Charles of Austria Teschen is mentioned he might be tasked with army reforms.

Get rid of Metternich (Kolowrat might get a Chance - we was comparable "liberal")







If Ludwig

Yeah, but Metternich was still quite influential at the time. I think Ludwig will try to limit his power. Generally, Kolowrat's liberalism should be welcomed, but Metternich's specific idea for a parliament and limited autonomy are also valid.

With regard to the cultures, yes, I agree. This means that Austria must first get its house in order before consorting with Balkan independence movements- otherwise, if they have the view that Austria is crushing its own minorities, they'll never submit anyway.

What sort of social themes would he tackle? Also, with regard to foreign affairs- I'm seriously out of my depth with regard to the rest of Europe around this time. Richter, do you want to make this collaborative? Rope in all the Austrian enthusiasts?

I meant Ferdinand I's wife, Maria Anna- wait, you recommended her? Maria Anna it is!

Neptune said:

~sip~

Comments? Suggestions? Anyone want to pick up the slack? I'll probably not be able to keep this up.

Click to expand...

Neptune said:

~sip~

Does anyone have any ideas about who Lud should marry? Or should we just stick with Maria Theresa?

Click to expand...

Lovely thoughts all around here. Two minor, perhaps personal, suggestions: The Crown Prince wouldn't be referred to as General (in the first passage), he's either Crown Prince or Archduke.
Stylistically, I would advise sticking to either German or English name variants. It's odd to have Emperor Francis and Archduke Charles, and then Ludwig (Louis) Ferdinand. Personally, I'd go with German.

Other even more minor things, he should be Apostolic King of Hungary, the Magyars, even before the Ausgleich, are funny about those things, although as an internal monologue it perhaps doesn't matter. The Kapuziner/Imperial Crypt is redundant. One assumes the other when it comes to the Austrian Habsburgs.

Neptune said:

Yeah, but Metternich was still quite influential at the time. I think Ludwig will try to limit his power. Generally, Kolowrat's liberalism should be welcomed, but Metternich's specific idea for a parliament and limited autonomy are also valid.

With regard to the cultures, yes, I agree. This means that Austria must first get its house in order before consorting with Balkan independence movements- otherwise, if they have the view that Austria is crushing its own minorities, they'll never submit anyway.

What sort of social themes would he tackle? Also, with regard to foreign affairs- I'm seriously out of my depth with regard to the rest of Europe around this time. Richter, do you want to make this collaborative? Rope in all the Austrian enthusiasts?

I meant Ferdinand I's wife, Maria Anna- wait, you recommended her? Maria Anna it is!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer, but I must admit I hardly can continue my own TL(s) - and ist easier to criticize than be creative. I will follow this and give advice where I can...

It would be nice if this TL could somehow make Italy and Austria friends. Starting with Maria Anna - and her decendants this might be a nice start.

But this would mean to give up the Italian parts of the Empire - difficult to make it voluntary...

Making Italy and Austria friends is difficult with a Post Congress of Vienna PoD, but with one before the Congress it could be much easier.

If you can focus Austria northward on Germany, this will pull them away from Italy. In particular, if they wind up gaining a lot of German Territory, such as the Rhineland in place of Prussia, then the Congress Powers won't accept them also gaining Lombardia-Venetia.

If there's a Crimean type war you could have Austria join Britain and France in attacking Russia leading to a massive dominoes of European states joining in.

Austrian Ukraine, Prussian Poland and Swedish Finland after the Russian collapse sounds like a fun 19th century.

I love a good Austro-wank! Subbing to this.

First off, thank you to all the people who replied to my post! ImperialVienna, thank you so much for gracing this thread with your presence. I really like your Hapsburg timelines. I've corrected what needs correcting. Richter von Manthofen, I'm working on it- see below. To JCVocke, I'm afraid the Napoleonic Era isn't my area of expertise, but I would appreciate your knowledge for any other changes Joseph Ferdinand might be able to effect before he actually comes on the throne. The Gunslinger, I've taken your advice into consideration. See below! Draeger, thank you so much for your support!

Excerpts from The Austrian-Italian Friendship, published by unknown author, 1888:

After the Austrian entry into the Crimean War, which saw the acquisition of the former Ottoman Danubian Principalities, the Empire had won the enmity of the Russians but the friendship of the French. […] Napoleon III, seeing that Joseph Ferdinand I was genuine in his wishes for eventual reform, officially declared an alliance with the Austrian Empire in December 1856. However, the shadow battle for influence over the Italian states continued to rage, even as Austria (whether deliberately or not, it is not clear) allowed its relations with the South German states to fall into decay. […]

[…] The 1860 cession of Sardinian lands to France […] enflamed Italian unificationist sentiments across the Kingdom, and it would have died out if not for the continued encouragement in the form of propaganda from Lombardy-Venetia. […] a number of high-level diplomatic visits, disguised as familial matters, between Joseph Ferdinand I, his wife, Maria Anna of Savoy, and the Sardinian king, Charles Emmanuel, eventually managed to alter Sardinian policy with regards to France (the Sardinian king was notoriously autocratic and mercurial, wielding enormous influence over foreign affairs), […] and eventually warming relations with Austria.

The diplomatic coup was a huge surprise for French authorities, but by then the Austrians had already sponsored and arranged multiple referenda in Hapsburg-influenced Italian states. The conclusion, by now, was foregone […]. Over the space of two months, while the French struggled to muster international support against Austria […] and the Russians alternately insulted and pleaded with Austria (though they were aware that their military survive so much as two battles against the Austrians at this point), the Kingdom of Sardinia extended from the border with France to that with the Papal States.

In a historic diplomatic visit in 1862, Giuseppe Garibaldi met with Archduke Franz Leopold in Milan. Although the meeting at first was amicable, Garibaldi drew attention to the “continued occupation of Lombardy-Venetia”. […] The room was silent for “what felt like an eternity”, according to the Archduke’s diaries, but it is reported that the Archduke eventually responded by affirming Garibaldi’s request and revealing that his purpose in attending the diplomatic function had been to “arrange the award of Lombardy-Venetia to the Kingdom of Sardinia, so that the Empire of Austria might serve as a midwife to the Italian Kingdom under your monarch, […]”. The room erupted in applause and jubilant cheers.

Paris was apoplectic. […]

Oh this is going to go well

And what stops the Italians from getting greedy and want Trent,Trieste and Dalmatia?

Really? The Emperor just gives away the most rich region of Italy?