An interesting take on Sealion

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11082316

Real history but since it will spring the usual historical debate I put it here

German shock troops would have landed at Dover, dressed in British uniforms, if the Luftwaffe had won the Battle of Britain, newly-released files suggest.

Details of the plan to invade Britain emerge from a post-war debrief of a German soldier and are in an MI5 file made public at the National Archives.

Cpl Werner Janowski was interrogated about his wartime work for the German Intelligence Service, the Abwehr.

he plan was abandoned because invading troops would have faced RAF attack.

Dover was to be the focal point of the invasion, but troops would have landed elsewhere along the south coast, as well as in Scotland and the south of Ireland.

Dr Ed Hampshire, principal records specialist at the National Archives, said: "The idea of shock troops wearing enemy uniforms, as they had in the Low Countries, is fascinating. It's really The Eagle Has Landed stuff."

"It gives an indication of what might have happened if the Battle of Britain had gone the other way," he said.

Continue reading the main story

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It gives an indication of what might have happened if the Battle of Britain had gone the other way”

Dr Ed Hampshire
National Archives
After the shock troops had captured the docks at Dover, the plan was for the main contingent of German troops to be brought over in barges and disembark at the docks.

Cpl Janowski described how his unit trained extensively in invasion techniques on the beaches of France during September and early October 1940.

But at the end of October some units were transferred elsewhere and they realised the invasion - Operation Sea Lion - had been called off.

Hitler cancelled the invasion because Hermann Goering's Luftwaffe had been unable to destroy the RAF and without air superiority the German troops would have been too vulnerable.

Cpl Janowski said the RAF destroyed most of the invasion barges at Dunkirk in bombing raids in December 1940.

Strategy detail
The plan involved a huge aerial bombardment of the Dover area prior to the shock troops' landing, he explained.

Cpl Janowski then went into great detail about the route they would have taken to try to and secure the town: "Having effected a landing they would proceed along the cliffs to a point outside Dover where there were steps leading down to the beach and from this point they were to continue along the beach.

"They would regain the cliff head by means of some steps near Dover station and then pass alongside the railway station and take possession of three docks on which were gun emplacements.

"They would then signal to Luftwaffe that the docks were in their possession."

By the time Cpl Janowski was being interrogated, the war was already over and MI5's focus was on another enemy - the Soviet Union.

Cpl Janowski had been employed later in the war by the Jahnke Buro, a section of the Abwehr which it was feared had been infiltrated by Soviet agents.

MI5 feared some German agents, like Janowski's superior Wilhelm Hollmann, might go to work for the KGB.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
It sounds to me like someone has been smoking something illegal...!!

Landings in Scotland...!!!!

And the casual 'well, we'll be dressed in British uniforms so noone will wonder why these assult craft are casualy motoring into Dover harbour....
(We''l ignore the fact that, invasion notwithstanding, you simply CANT just casually motor into a major port in wartime.)

This looks rather like a collection of all the rumours, tall stories and downright lies currently going around his barracks at the time that he's foisted off onto someone rather gullible...(or stupid, like a journalist...)
 
It always surprises me how the Germans thought they could ship across over 300,000 troops and this is without any specialised shipping the sort that the RN and USN developed such as the LCT and LSI, or indeed things like PLUTO and Mulberry. The German prahms would have flooded in a destroyers wake so can you imagine what would have happened had the RN launched a strike against the Germans incoming wave-even with total air superiority?
 

cumbria

Banned
It sounds to me like someone has been smoking something illegal...!!

Landings in Scotland...!!!!

And the casual 'well, we'll be dressed in British uniforms so noone will wonder why these assult craft are casualy motoring into Dover harbour....
(We''l ignore the fact that, invasion notwithstanding, you simply CANT just casually motor into a major port in wartime.)

This looks rather like a collection of all the rumours, tall stories and downright lies currently going around his barracks at the time that he's foisted off onto someone rather gullible...(or stupid, like a journalist...)

All to be submarine landings I believe.
 
All to be submarine landings I believe.

Submarine landings in Scotland...gosh! Those hundred or 2 german troops are gonna TERRIFY the Scottish lads.....!!:D:D:D

(NOt to mention this little issue of landing on the east coast. Lots of bays, Damn few with access out, and those tend to have people living there...)
 

cumbria

Banned
Submarine landings in Scotland...gosh! Those hundred or 2 german troops are gonna TERRIFY the Scottish lads.....!!:D:D:D

(NOt to mention this little issue of landing on the east coast. Lots of bays, Damn few with access out, and those tend to have people living there...)

Im just going on what I was told this morning.
Ill watch the show on BBC iplayer if I get chance.
The couple of hundred man attack on Dover seemed quite good by what im told.
 
Im just going on what I was told this morning.
Ill watch the show on BBC iplayer if I get chance.
The couple of hundred man attack on Dover seemed quite good by what im told.

A couple of hundred men take Dover....*gleep* !!!
Did the jouro who swallowed this line actually bother to check how many men the British had defending Dover...!!?
On second thoughts, he probably couldnt count that high, even after he took his socks off...:p
 
Dieppe in Dover

If there had been a German landing in Dover it not have lasted too long or gone well. We would be talking about the Dover Disaster. Cancalation was a good idea.
 
This looks rather like a collection of all the rumours, tall stories and downright lies currently going around his barracks at the time that he's foisted off onto someone rather gullible...(or stupid, like a journalist...)
Its newly released files from the PRO.
 

Graehame

Banned
Basically the idea of landings in Brit uniform is excellent, especially if coupled with a plan utilizing English-speakers, forged orders, or whatever, to take the Dover gun emplacements. The Brits had the equivalent of about 2 infantry divisions protecting Dover, low on both morale & ammo. The combination of enemy soldiers in Brit uniform, plus an air assault by the 7th Fliegerdiv & 22d Luftlande Div, would have quickly neutralized them even before the amphib landings began.

As for the landings in Scotland & Ireland, I interpret them as diversionary. Possibly the one in Ireland was also to whip up Gaelic guerilla opposition to the Brits. Once again, perfectly legitimate elements of a good overall plan.

Of course, this all depends on other factors. Like, "Could the Luftwaffe achieve air superiority?" Ans-- yes, given the right set of circumstances. (See my thread, "Seelowe", for details.)

"Could the RN be neutralized?" Ans-- no, but they just might have been diverted by a ruse.

"Was the weather suitable?" Ans-- in late Oct, emphatically yes.

"Could this have been predicted in advance?" Ans-- unfortunately, no.

"Was it reasonable to commit large numbers of German troops to landings using converted river barges?" Ans-- emphatically no.

And, "Would the Brits really have used mustard gas in proximity to large numbers of their own civilians?" Ans-- unknown.

...but if the RAF was neutralized, & if the RN was successfully diverted, & if the Germans were willing to risk the weather & the barges, & if the Brits decided against the mustard gas option, then had the Germans gotten ashore with even 8 or 10 divisions then the Brit ground defenses would have folded up like wet newspaper. A lot of ifs, which argues against the possibility.

(Personally, I agree with Adolf Galland that Hitler never really intended to invade Britain. It was all to convince the Soviets that he wasn't interested in invading them.)
 
Jesus H this Forum is taken over by people who have no imagination.

How many American Commandos landed just before D-Day and attacked Pont du Hoc? A few hundred? Was that the entire Invasion Force?

Jeez, why do so many of you get your jollies attacking every idea?
 
How many American Commandos landed just before D-Day and attacked Pont du Hoc? A few hundred? Was that the entire Invasion Force?


While both are fruit, apples and oranges are surprisingly different.

The Rangers were tasked on D-Day with taking out an artillery battery which could fire on two of the landing beaches. The Rangers weren't tasked on D-Day with landing in a port, seizing docks, and holding the same long enough for Allied troop transports to unload.

The both tasks are very different and the possibility of success for both are very different.


THANK YOU, SAXON DOG!!!

Birds of a feather...
 
Get REAL.
Those Americans would have had to land on a tiny beach, climb a hundred foot cliff, attack a prepared German Battery, in the dark, ALL UNDER FIRE from a dozen machine guns, with grenades falling all around them.

No way. Couldnt happen. You are crazy to even suggest it.
 
Basically the idea of landings in Brit uniform is excellent, especially if coupled with a plan utilizing English-speakers, forged orders, or whatever, to take the Dover gun emplacements.

Look at how well the recruiting for the Einheit Steilau teams worked. Most of the "English speakers" were barely fluent. I suspect that a fair number of the ones who were would speak with American accents. Not very plausible for getting into a British garrison

And where is the Navy's small boats patrol during all this? They aren't going to stop a flock of boats coming from France?

...but if the RAF was neutralized, & if the RN was successfully diverted, & if the Germans were willing to risk the weather & the barges, & if the Brits decided against the mustard gas option, then had the Germans gotten ashore with even 8 or 10 divisions then the Brit ground defenses would have folded up like wet newspaper. A lot of ifs, which argues against the possibility

You've got four serious PoD's here, and the likelihood of even one of them happening is low. Your Scots landings will be wrapped up by the Local Defence Volunteers.

And remember, even one (1) destroyer can swamp the invasion flotilla, which is going to be bad off enough in the October weather. If they're sitting around waiting for the weather to turn, there'll be enough signaling to give away that they are planning some sort of trick, which will make the troops even more vigilant regarding unexplained Yorkshiremen, Scots, and Guardees who all happen to speak with blurred Yank accents and turn up in a boat coming from France . . .

Saxon Dog: there's a reason the people who have been around here for a while speak of "Unmentionable Sea Mammal". This scenario has been done to death, and the more the research that is done the more implausible it gets. Just consider, for example, that those "8 or 10 divisions" that are supposed to make the British defences fold up like a wet newspaper (probably the Daily Mail) can't be supplied.

There seems to be a new wave of Unmentionable Sea Mammal posts here of late. I make it a consequence of universities starting classes earlier in the year.
 
Mark it up to boredom. World Peace just aint what its all cracked up to be.

And isnt your full name Major Major Major Major? I read that book. Righteous handle if thats where you got it.
 
Dover was to be the focal point of the invasion, but troops would have landed elsewhere along the south coast, as well as in Scotland and the south of Ireland.

Now that could have been interesting. Not to say pretty disastrous for de Valera...
 
And where is the Navy's small boats patrol during all this? They aren't going to stop a flock of boats coming from France?



You've got four serious PoD's here, and the likelihood of even one of them happening is low. Your Scots landings will be wrapped up by the Local Defence Volunteers.

And remember, even one (1) destroyer can swamp the invasion flotilla, which is going to be bad off enough in the October weather. If they're sitting around waiting for the weather to turn, there'll be enough signaling to give away that they are planning some sort of trick, which will make the troops even more vigilant regarding unexplained Yorkshiremen, Scots, and Guardees who all happen to speak with blurred Yank accents and turn up in a boat coming from France . . .

Saxon Dog: there's a reason the people who have been around here for a while speak of "Unmentionable Sea Mammal". This scenario has been done to death, and the more the research that is done the more implausible it gets. Just consider, for example, that those "8 or 10 divisions" that are supposed to make the British defences fold up like a wet newspaper (probably the Daily Mail) can't be supplied.

There seems to be a new wave of Unmentionable Sea Mammal posts here of late. I make it a consequence of universities starting classes earlier in the year.

IIRC, 37 RN DD's directed just at any Channel invasion forces alone.

There ought to be an entry whenever new members join up about the 1975 Sandhurst wargame on Sealion. It was umpired by surviving British and West German officers responsible for fighting Sealion. The result? 9 divisions get across, 7 are supplied (the other 2 left to forage), and the Royal Navy shuts off the supply line across the Channel. An exercise on how to slaughter troops on the beaches. Gallipoli on a far vaster scale. And nobody gets home.:eek: The British had 30 divisions, including IIRC a Canadian armored division, dedicated to the defense of SE England. Granted many were of poor quality, but considering the lightness of the German formations they'd be facing (No tanks, no artillery)?

For the British, their one strategic failure was judging the landing site to be East Anglia, not between Dover and Beachy Head (The Heer would eventually enlargen the proposed landing zone further west to go closer to Southampton). The British made this mistake because they had calculated, CORRECTLY, that you had to land there or else the invading force would be logistically strangled to death. East Anglia was the only way to go if conquest of England was your goal. The Germans chose Dover simply due to the fact that they couldn't go any further. To make matters even worse for the Germans, the Kriegsmarine was in a uniquely weakened state at the time, even for them. Check to see how many of their heavier units were in drydock for essential repairs, on commerce raiding duty, still under construction, or on the bottom of a Norwegian fjord.:p
 
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