This is extraordinarily bad: Crusaders in Mecca

Strategos' Risk

Probably bordering ASB, but in this immense multi-Paradox game epic the AI goes all wacky with the death of Ogedei Khan, allowing the expanded Kingdom of Jerusalem (which had only been the Levant, Egypt, bits of Lebanon and Syria, and the entirety of Cyprus and Crete) to conquer all of Arabia and parts of Persia.

Suppose a similar (but much scaled back) crumpling of the il-Khanate and the Muslim states they defeated (such as the Sultanate of Rum) occurred following the Great Khan's death, and the Christian powers were able to capture a lot of the territory in the aftermath, including Mecca and Medina (yeah logistically speaking this is likely ASB).

What happens when you have crusaders conquering the geographical heart of Islam?
 

Atreus

A better POD would be that raynauld of Chatillon's Red sea expedition works out as he planned it. It was insanity to try it, but he came rather close to siezing Mecca and the body of the Prophet Muhammed. Now, if Raynauld succeeds in taking Mecca, and either fortifies like mad or follows his original plan and takes the body back to his own lands as a hostage, the consequences will be major.
 

Cornelius

Dear, old Raynauld...If he had successed we would have needed a new definition of "Religion War" to describe the utter carnage that would have followed...
 

Atreus

Strategos' Risk said:
what are you talking about
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It's been a while, so I don't remember all the details, but it was something like this.

Raynauld planned on raiding Mecca and Medina, and stealing the contents of the Kab'aa and the body of Muhammed, and taking them back to his castle and holding them for ransom. To do this, he hired some mercenaries and pirates, and the marched to the red sea, near modern Eliat. They constructed a fleet, and set sail for Mecca, pillaging all in their path. Because no enemy had ever appeared in these waters, this took the Muslims by suprise, and there were no forces avalible to repell them. However, raynauld returned to handle something at home, his expedition lost momentum, and his men were killed.
 

Strategos' Risk

But Muhammad is supposed to have ascended directly into heaven at the place where the Dome of the Rock is built on. There is neither grave nor body for him...
 

Keenir

Banned
Atreus said:
It's been a while, so I don't remember all the details, but it was something like this.

Raynauld planned on raiding Mecca and Medina, and stealing the contents of the Kab'aa and the body of Muhammed, and taking them back to his castle and holding them for ransom.
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if there was ever anything that could unite the Assassins with every other denomination under a single banner, this would probably be it.
 

Strategos' Risk

So what happens to the religion if Mecca is overrun by non-Muslims, the Kaaba is defiled or destroyed, and the western powers conquer the lands surrounding there for an extended amount of time?
 

wormyguy

Banned
Personally, I think this is early enough in the history of Islam that it probably would go something like this.

Upon seeing that God did not see fit to protect the holiest cities of Islam, Arabs convert en masse back to their previous tribal religions. Spread of Arabs seriously loses momentum, they eventually are chased back by Europeans over a hundred year period or so to their original homes in Arabia. Islam becomes an interesting footnote in history. Something like the Mongol Empire (which still happens, and likely is even more dangerous due to a lack of powerful states to oppose it in the Middle East), or the Taipeng Rebellion. Byzantine Empire, if they aren't conquered by Mongols or crusaders, survives to the present day! :eek:
 

Ofaloaf

wormyguy said:
Personally, I think this is early enough in the history of Islam that it probably would go something like this.

Upon seeing that God did not see fit to protect the holiest cities of Islam, Arabs convert en masse back to their previous tribal religions. Spread of Arabs seriously loses momentum, they eventually are chased back by Europeans over a hundred year period or so to their original homes in Arabia. Islam becomes an interesting footnote in history. Something like the Mongol Empire (which still happens, and likely is even more dangerous due to a lack of powerful states to oppose it in the Middle East), or the Taipeng Rebellion. Byzantine Empire, if they aren't conquered by Mongols or crusaders, survives to the present day! :eek:
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Islam becomes a footnote after already expanding to its greatest heights and lasting 500 years up to that point? I'd rather think that it'd certainly be established enough to weather this tragedy, regardless of how deep it may be, to bounce back all pissed off-like and seeking revenge.
 

Strategos' Risk

I was going to ask what would happen if the surrounding Muslim powers of the time had been weakened enough by the coming of the Mongols so that they are conquered by the European powers following the fall of the Il-Khan, compounding to the devastation to the Muslim world, as in the story, but I guess that may be ASB. The rapid conversions to Catholicism in the conquered areas are most definitely something gamey and unrealistic.
 

boredatwork

Banned
I would imagine that something like this would be unlikely to lead to mass conversion to the religion of the conquerors (at least, not without an extended occupation combined with methodical and sustained efforts at conversion). Some conversion would be reasonable to expect, as would schisms/heresies. Reversion to older beliefs (tribal, jewish, orthodox christian, zoroastrian, and random mixes (such as Islam itself) would certainly not be unexpected.

As for the general presumption of a massive bounce back - the scenario (asb or borderline so at least) presumes a priori exceedingly weakened islamic powers. Such 'powers', especially after the loss of their heartland and the almost certain concomittant shattering of their belief in their divine mission/mandate to conquer, would likely take quite some time recovering (from whatever it was that would have enabled the original christian conquest) prior to taking any appreciable action.

To suggest otherwise would be on the same order of claiming that the byzantines would lay waste to Eurasia in retaliation for the sack of Rome.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
wormyguy said:
Personally, I think this is early enough in the history of Islam that it probably would go something like this.

Upon seeing that God did not see fit to protect the holiest cities of Islam, Arabs convert en masse back to their previous tribal religions. Spread of Arabs seriously loses momentum, they eventually are chased back by Europeans over a hundred year period or so to their original homes in Arabia. Islam becomes an interesting footnote in history. Something like the Mongol Empire (which still happens, and likely is even more dangerous due to a lack of powerful states to oppose it in the Middle East), or the Taipeng Rebellion. Byzantine Empire, if they aren't conquered by Mongols or crusaders, survives to the present day! :eek:
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No just no. Islam would become incredibly pissed and view it as God's way of saying that they are'nt doing enough. expect every christian to get killed, several Jihads against Byzantine and Europe, and maybe a raid on the Vatican to return the favor.
 

Strategos' Risk

Knocking away one of the pillars of Islam would be pretty momentous, but I think by the 1200s or so the faith would be too well-established to be destroyed, even if the capitals of the faith are.
 

tormsen

The idea that they'd revert to previous religions is patently silly. At any rate, thats just not how people of faith react to situations like that. If anything, this situation would unite the Islamic world in a way it hadn't been for decades. The Crusades were largely a sideshow while the Muslim power blocs bickered amongst themselves. But the Crusaders taking Mecca? Taking the Prophet's body? They're not going to be all like "Well, gee, I guess our God isn't that great after all". What religious group reacts like that? It'll piss them off and unite them, for awhile at least.
 

Jord839

I don't think Islam would suffer horribly. It was pretty well established at that point and I doubt it would suffer. That said, I don't think it's going to turn into some huge muslim-vengeance-wank as some seem to be hinting at because, as someone's pointed out, for this to happen they would have had to be pretty weak by this time anyway. And even if it wasn't weak, I just don't think Islam would be capable of killing every christian or taking over europe as some are saying.

Most importantly though, people are forgetting something. Losing one of a faith's holy cities often doesn't harm it too much. Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Alexandria were all extremely important to the christian faith and they all fell to the muslims. Christianity did not react in the way that people here are suggesting Islam would, so I have no reason that Islam would react in those ways either.
 

the_lyniezian

Banned
Can we not take some lessons from the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple and the Jewish reaction thereto? It did not destroy the faith of the Jews, who are with us to this day...
 

tormsen

Jord839 said:
I don't think Islam would suffer horribly. It was pretty well established at that point and I doubt it would suffer. That said, I don't think it's going to turn into some huge muslim-vengeance-wank as some seem to be hinting at because, as someone's pointed out, for this to happen they would have had to be pretty weak by this time anyway. And even if it wasn't weak, I just don't think Islam would be capable of killing every christian or taking over europe as some are saying.
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I think most of the more outlandish claims are coming from the "Islam will collapse in on itself" side. I do think there will be a strong strain of revenge and religious unity emerging in Islam for some time due to these events, and I do think there will be reprisals.
 
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