A different cold war? The results of one man not taking his medicine.

Robert Sullivan

As many people know, Hitler was on drugs from 1933-1945, his entire reign. The reason for these drugs was that Hitler was incredibly flatulent, suffered from syphillis, and suffered from parkinson's. However, the drugs he took were obviosly questionable: they included cocaine. The supplier of these drugs was a mysterious Dr. Theodore Morrell. I personally believe that Morrell had a great influence on history. Let's see how that changed the world:

1933: In our timeline, this was the year Hitler met Morrell. In the universe we're hypothesizing right now, Hitler does not meet Morrell. In a speech for his campaign to be chancellor of Germany, he is flatulent, and embarresses himself in front of most of Germany. Hitler is not elected to the chancellorship and Germany does not turn to Nazism.

1935: Japan begins its bombing campaign against China. This also happens in our world.

1941: Japan instigates a bombing of Pearl Harbor. The following day, President Roosevelt declares war on Japan. With no Hitler, though, we do not go to Europe.

1942: Realizing the success of Japan, Stalin declares war on Poland, hoping to expand the Soviet Empire. Roosevelt and America do not go to the European war, because they are engaged in their own conflict with Japan. However, America is weakened by not having a Germany to fight: Albert Einstein never sends his famous letter to President Roosevelt and the Manhattan Project never begins. No Manhattan Project, no atomic munitions.

1946: Stalin conquers Britain, the last nation in Europe not under Soviet power. America still refuses to fight in Europe. Stalin, enslaving the scientists of Europe, begins top-secret work on an atomic bomb, just to begin conquering other frontiers.

1948: Stalin explodes his first nuclear bomb. It is a combination of research from Albert Einstein, Werner von Braun, and others. That same year, they develope the first ICBM through technology which, in this world, made the V-2.

1951: The US wins the war against Japan.

1954: The US declares Japan the fifty-first state of the Union. Stalin invades China two monthes later. Also, President Roosevelt dies in his sixth term of office.

1958: Stalin dies, and is succeeded by a man named Mao Tse-Teung (I know it's misspelled, any hints?).

1964: Having conquered all of Asia, Mao sets his sights on Japan and the US. He launches an ICBM into Los Angeles as a warning to give Japan to the USSR. President MacArthur refuses to surrender Japan to them. He loses reelection the next year to Barry Goldwater.

1965: Goldwater gives Japan to the Soviet Union. A group of CIA assassins is sent into Moscow to take down Mao. Mao is assassinated and succeeded by Nikitia Kruschev.

1967: Kruschev gives a full, written apology to the US for so many deaths caused by his predessessors.

1968-1999: Tensions between the US and the USSR ease to the point where they are almost allies.

2001: President Al Gore and Premier Boris Yeltsin agree on a plan to break up the Soviet Union.

2003: The Soviet Union breaks up into seperate countries. The new nations are divided by tensions between pro-communists and pro-democracies. The US steps in to assist with taking down the pro-communists.

So, that's my story. If you don't think it's possible, please tell me, but be respectful about it. Thank you.
 

Brilliantlight

Banned
Robert Sullivan said:
As many people know, Hitler was on drugs from 1933-1945, his entire reign. The reason for these drugs was that Hitler was incredibly flatulent, suffered from syphillis, and suffered from parkinson's. However, the drugs he took were obviosly questionable: they included cocaine. The supplier of these drugs was a mysterious Dr. Theodore Morrell. I personally believe that Morrell had a great influence on history. Let's see how that changed the world:

1933: In our timeline, this was the year Hitler met Morrell. In the universe we're hypothesizing right now, Hitler does not meet Morrell. In a speech for his campaign to be chancellor of Germany, he is flatulent, and embarresses himself in front of most of Germany. Hitler is not elected to the chancellorship and Germany does not turn to Nazism.

1935: Japan begins its bombing campaign against China. This also happens in our world.

1941: Japan instigates a bombing of Pearl Harbor. The following day, President Roosevelt declares war on Japan. With no Hitler, though, we do not go to Europe.

1942: Realizing the success of Japan, Stalin declares war on Poland, hoping to expand the Soviet Empire. Roosevelt and America do not go to the European war, because they are engaged in their own conflict with Japan. However, America is weakened by not having a Germany to fight: Albert Einstein never sends his famous letter to President Roosevelt and the Manhattan Project never begins. No Manhattan Project, no atomic munitions.

1946: Stalin conquers Britain, the last nation in Europe not under Soviet power. America still refuses to fight in Europe. Stalin, enslaving the scientists of Europe, begins top-secret work on an atomic bomb, just to begin conquering other frontiers.

1948: Stalin explodes his first nuclear bomb. It is a combination of research from Albert Einstein, Werner von Braun, and others. That same year, they develope the first ICBM through technology which, in this world, made the V-2.

1951: The US wins the war against Japan.

1954: The US declares Japan the fifty-first state of the Union. Stalin invades China two monthes later. Also, President Roosevelt dies in his sixth term of office.

1958: Stalin dies, and is succeeded by a man named Mao Tse-Teung (I know it's misspelled, any hints?).

1964: Having conquered all of Asia, Mao sets his sights on Japan and the US. He launches an ICBM into Los Angeles as a warning to give Japan to the USSR. President MacArthur refuses to surrender Japan to them. He loses reelection the next year to Barry Goldwater.

1965: Goldwater gives Japan to the Soviet Union. A group of CIA assassins is sent into Moscow to take down Mao. Mao is assassinated and succeeded by Nikitia Kruschev.

1967: Kruschev gives a full, written apology to the US for so many deaths caused by his predessessors.

1968-1999: Tensions between the US and the USSR ease to the point where they are almost allies.

2001: President Al Gore and Premier Boris Yeltsin agree on a plan to break up the Soviet Union.

2003: The Soviet Union breaks up into seperate countries. The new nations are divided by tensions between pro-communists and pro-democracies. The US steps in to assist with taking down the pro-communists.

So, that's my story. If you don't think it's possible, please tell me, but be respectful about it. Thank you.
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Having the USSR conquer GB and the US not doing anything about it is almost ASB territory.
 

KJM

A flatulent Hitler might be even more likely to gain power, owing to his willingness to fart in France's general direction. :D

Seriously, I see no big problem with this.
 

Robert Sullivan

KJM said:
A flatulent Hitler might be even more likely to gain power, owing to his willingness to fart in France's general direction. :D

Seriously, I see no big problem with this.
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That's funny. :D Thanks for the compliment, though.
 

carlton_bach

I can just barely see a Supercold-War USA send assassins into Moscow to off the Secretary General of the Central Committee, but Mao succeeding Stalin?

Well, that and Stalin's USSR managing to walk all over Europe without a hitch. I mean, even with the vast national effort and unifying drive of the German invasion and its horrors, they got as far as the Elbe. If you want an estimate of how well Stalin's Red Army prior to Barbarossa conducts warfare, look at Finland and Khalkin Gol. They're good, but they're not superhuman.

Oh, and Goldwater surrenders an actual STATE without fighting a war? I don't see the US electorate voting for a platform of surrendering sovereign territory in the aftermath of an attack. What ARE they putting into the drinking water supply over there?
 

Tom_B

Over the Top WWII WI's

You are one of those. :rolleyes:

This is a variant of No Hitler POD's. The logic seems to be that only Hitler could keep the Commies out of London. With Hitler embarassinging himself into political oblivion, you could have the Communists taking over Germany and become allied with Russia and the two together dominate the Continent (but even then conquering GB looks extremely difficult). But that does not appear to be going on in this TL.

Tom
 

Norman

I like how it starts, but I agree with that the US woudl certainly intervene long before the Commies win in GB. I think that the Soviets might move to take over Poland, and then they would be confronted by ultimatums from France, and Great Britain, and (quite possibly) Germany.

The Soviets were really in no position to export the revolution, and any moves toward the West would certainly invokde a fairly robust reaction. Plus, I just don't think Russia had the capacity in 1942 under this scenario to project power that far west.
 

Yossarian

Good POD, and good timeline until 1942, but once we see the soviets taking all of europe and the US making Japan a state we rapidly slide into an ASB scenario.
 

Yellmic Wigwawa

"1933: In our timeline, this was the year Hitler met Morrell. In the universe we're hypothesizing right now, Hitler does not meet Morrell. In a speech for his campaign to be chancellor of Germany, he is flatulent, and embarresses himself in front of most of Germany. Hitler is not elected to the chancellorship and Germany does not turn to Nazism."

:confused:


How exactly would Hitler's supposed flatulence stop him taking power? I don't see Mao Tse-Tung (Or Mao Zedong) taking over from Stalin under any circumstances.
 

Bill Cameron

Banned
Robert Sullivan wrote: So, that's my story. If you don't think it's possible, please tell me, but be respectful about it. Thank you.


Mr. Sullivan,

Was this on the History Channel too? :p

I like the bits about Hitler not becoming a drug addict or at least not the type of drug addict he was in the OTL.

As for the rest; Ten years to beat Japan? Japan becomes the 51st State and is then turned over to the USSR? The USSR takes all of Europe without the merest quibble from the US? Mao (?!?!) becomes the head of the USSR?

Sorry, IMEHO, you've reached a Turtledove/ASB level here.


Bill
 

DuQuense

With the US devoting 100% to japan, I see a defeat in 44' or spring ' 45 at the latest. with a slight possibillity of late '43.
 

Robert Sullivan

Thank you for your responses. Here's a change:

1933: Hitler embarrasses himself and does not become Chancellor.

1935: Japan starts bombing China.

1941: Japan bombs Pearl Harbor and Roosevelt declares war on Japan.

1943: V-J day.

1944: Roosevelt is elected for a fourth term in a landslide for his victory in Japan.

1946: Russia begins its nuclear program, hoping to be the first country on Earth to have a nuclear weapon.

1948: The Russian developement of a nuclear device is completed. Roosevelt is elected for a fifth term in office (without the stress of Germany, I think Roosevelt would have lived a lot longer).

1951: The US occupation of Japan ends, but a US-controlled puppet government still exists.

1952: China becomes communistic under Mao Zedung.

1955: The Soviets allow China into the Warsaw Pact.

1957: The Soviets place nuclear missiles into Chinese-controll. They are discovered the following year. Also, Roosevelt dies.

1959: President Truman is secretly informed of Russian activity in China. Truman secretly orders the creation of a US nuclear program.

1963: Japan's government discovers the missiles in China and beg Truman for help. Truman begins talks with Russia about the missiles, but at the same time removes all non-essential personal from the Russian, Chinese, and Japanese embassies. Later that year, Russian spies discover the US nuclear program.

1964: Russia agrees to remove the missiles if the US ends its nuclear program. Truman does. Later that year, he says that the stress of the job was too much, and he will not pursue a third term. The election is between John F. Kennedy and Dwight Eisenhower. Kennedy, surprisingly, wins.

1967: Kennedy secretly restarts the US nuclear program.

1968: Kennedy wins reelection. The FSA (Federal Space Administration) is formed. The US also secretly explodes the first nuclear weapon and Cuba becomes a US territory.

1971: Congress finds out that Kennedy has a nuclear project, shuts it down, and begins the impeachment process for Kennedy. The impeachment becomes the only thing Russian TV stations are allowed to broadcast for the next 6 monthes, in order to prove America is weak.

1972: John F. Kennedy is impeached, but it does not have the effect on the Russian people that the kremlin desired. Instead, they realize that in America, you can change your leaders. There is a large second Russian Revolution. President Carter (whom had been Kennedy's veep) sends in troops to assist with the Revolution.

1975: The Russian Revolution ends. The Soviet Union breaks up sixteen years early.
 

DocOrlando

A few things that still stick in my craw:

1) There's no way the United States would wait ELEVEN YEARS after the USSR has nuclear weapons to START its own program. That's just not how it works.

2) The Soviet nuclear program would not have practical results in only two years. There is no reason for German scientists to aid them -- either voluntarily or under duress -- as there has been no European war. And if you insist on there being no Manhattan Project, then there is no other ongoing research for the Soviets to steal. They are starting from square one -- a controlled, sustained nuclear reaction. They have no Fermi, no Einstein, no Oppenheimer.

3) Despite being socialist brothers, the Soviet Union and China have had a long history of mutual distrust. China is also the most populous nation on the planet; they will not be a mere puppet state, nor will they accept Soviet troops in any capacity outside of advisors. Similarly, the USSR would not want two billion yellow menaces lurking around their borders in the event that Mao's government should fall. Which all serves to illustrate my point: Stalin would sooner address the Presidium in a leather miniskirt and halter top than "GIVE" nuclear weapons to the Chinese! IT JUST WON'T HAPPEN.

4) You say "1957: The Soviets place nuclear missiles into Chinese-controll. They are discovered the following year." That would mean they're discovered in 1958. But then you say "1959: President Truman is secretly informed of Russian activity in China." And THEN you say "1963: Japan's government discovers the missiles in China and beg Truman for help." So just who discovered them in 1958? The CHINESE? Because apparently the US doesn't know until '59, and Japan -- right next door! -- doesn't figure it out 'til 1963! In 1962, in Cuba, the WHOLE WORLD knew in a matter of DAYS about Russian missile placement.

5) Soviet blackmail over the American nuclear program? Based on the first two points above, things would never reach this point anyway, but this just ain't gonna happen. That's about as realistic as if, in OTL, Kennedy demanded the dismantling of all Soviet missiles everywhere after finding the missiles in Cuba. Nikita would have had a big belly laugh and started launching Bears.

6) Kennedy secretly restarts the American nuclear project in 1967 and one year later we have The Bomb... but Congress doesn't find out about it until 1971? Exactly where did we do the work on this secret program, and explode this secret bomb, that NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT IT FOR THREE YEARS? THE MOON?!

7) And least of all... In 1948, you have Roosevelt run for, and win, a fifth term. That would have him out of office in 1953. You do not mention Truman as President until 1959, but you say that in 1964, he won't pursue a third term, which suggests he ran in both 1956 and 1960. So what happened between 1952-1956? I would also mention that with the war behind the US, the likelihood of Roosevelt being elected to a fifth term is extremely unlikely, and bordering on demagoguery.
 
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Brilliantlight

Banned
DocOrlando said:
A few things that still stick in my craw:

1) There's no way the United States would wait ELEVEN YEARS after the USSR has nuclear weapons to START its own program. That's just not how it works.

2) The Soviet nuclear program would not have practical results in only two years. There is no reason for German scientists to aid them -- either voluntarily or under duress -- as there has been no European war. And if you insist on there being no Manhattan Project, then there is no other ongoing research for the Soviets to steal. They are starting from square one -- a controlled, sustained nuclear reaction. They have no Fermi, no Einstein, no Oppenheimer.

3) Despite being socialist brothers, the Soviet Union and China have had a long history of mutual distrust. China is also the most populous nation on the planet; they will not be a mere puppet state, nor will they accept Soviet troops in any capacity outside of advisors. Similarly, the USSR would not want two billion yellow menaces lurking around their borders in the event that Mao's government should fall. Which all serves to illustrate my point: Stalin would sooner address the Presidium in a leather miniskirt and halter top than "GIVE" nuclear weapons to the Chinese! IT JUST WON'T HAPPEN.

4) You say "1957: The Soviets place nuclear missiles into Chinese-controll. They are discovered the following year." That would mean they're discovered in 1958. But then you say "1959: President Truman is secretly informed of Russian activity in China." And THEN you say "1963: Japan's government discovers the missiles in China and beg Truman for help." So just who discovered them in 1958? The CHINESE? Because apparently the US doesn't know until '59, and Japan -- right next door! -- doesn't figure it out 'til 1963! In 1962, in Cuba, the WHOLE WORLD knew in a matter of DAYS about Russian missile placement.

5) Soviet blackmail over the American nuclear program? Based on the first two points above, things would never reach this point anyway, but this just ain't gonna happen. That's about as realistic as if, in OTL, Kennedy demanded the dismantling of all Soviet missiles everywhere after finding the missiles in Cuba. Nikita would have had a big belly laugh and started launching Bears.

6) Kennedy secretly restarts the American nuclear project in 1967 and one year later we have The Bomb... but Congress doesn't find out about it until 1971? Exactly where did we do the work on this secret program, and explode this secret bomb, that NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT IT FOR THREE YEARS? THE MOON?!

7) And least of all... In 1948, you have Roosevelt run for, and win, a fifth term. That would have him out of office in 1953. You do not mention Truman as President until 1959, but you say that in 1964, he won't pursue a third term, which suggests he ran in both 1956 and 1960. So what happened between 1952-1956? I would also mention that with the war behind the US, the likelihood of Roosevelt being elected to a fifth term is extremely unlikely, and bordering on demagoguery.
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Agreed, this TL is also very unlikely.
 

ljofa

Question: What happens to Hitler? In 1933 he was invited by Franz von Papen and President Hindenburg to become German Chancellor. He only mustered 44% of the votes in the previous election and had to add the 8% obtained by the Nationalists to obtain a clear majority (Germany was following a PR system). Who would von Papen and Hindenburg invite to become Chancellor instead? They naïvely thought that by bringing Hitler into the government, they could control him and use Nazism to their own ends.

If Hitler isn't invited to become Chancellor, who is and what happens to the Nazi's? The SA?
 

Bill Cameron

Banned
Mr. Sullivan,

Still an Alien Space Bat TL I'm afraid. Here are a few points to ponder;

- Where's Hitler, the SA, and the NSDAP? It's going to take more than a few farts to blow all them away. If he doesn't make chancellor in '33, Hitler just doesn't disappear.

- FDR running for a fourth and FIFTH term without the war as an excuse? He broke with the two-term precedent mainly because of the war in Europe in '40 and the on-going war in '44.

- The USSR gets the Bomb first? Stalin hadn't been interested in any project of that sort until his spies reported the existence of the Manhattan Project. Even after that, he didn't throw great resources into it until Truman told him at Yalta about Trinity. (Soviet spies had reported the successful test too.) The first Soviet bomb was a carbon copy of the US' uranium, Little Boy, gun type despite the fact that their own scientists wanted to build a plutonium Fat Man type. Again, this was done out of fear of Stalin who wanted precisely what the US had. They did the same with the B-29s they interned.

- Stalin ALONE has the Bomb for decades and doens't use it?

- Truman as president without WW2? Truman was viewed as a party machine hack, a nobody placed in the Senate by the Pendergast machine in Kansas City. His committee that looked into wasteful spending in the wa effort brought him to national attention and somewhat erased his earlier reputation.

- A Warsaw Pact? The Pact was created mainly in response to NATO and Germany rearming and even then it was years later. NATO was founded in '49 and the Pact in '55 (IIRC)

- Chinese and Soviet co-operation at the level you assume is extremely unlikely. About as unlikely as this TL actually.

Stalin and the USSR figure prominently in your TL. Pop over to your local library and pick up this book; "Stalin, The Court of the Red Tsar" by Simon Montefiore. It's kinda big, ~700 pages, but you needn't read the whole thing. You can skip the bits dealing with the 20s and 30s and just read the chapters about the war and aftermath.


Bill
 

Adam Parsons

I would also recommend "Stalin" by Edvard Radzinsky. You can find out more about the book here. It's about 400 pages, and the author does give a slightly different spin on the man. It's also more relaxed in structure than the average biography, but still worth a read.

Remember, research is the most important part of a good TL.
 

Robert Sullivan

Bill Cameron said:
Mr. Sullivan,

- Where's Hitler, the SA, and the NSDAP? It's going to take more than a few farts to blow all them away. If he doesn't make chancellor in '33, Hitler just doesn't disappear.

-

Bill
Click to expand...

That's a very good point. I suppose that if Hitler didn't become chancellor, he might commit suicide or something else. Hitler was, obviously, emotionally disturbed, so he was capable of anything after failure. Perhaps he would've become a terrorist or serial killer, targeting jews and murdering them. I'll think about it though. Any suggestions?
 

DocOrlando

My best suggestion: don't overreach (and as the others have suggested, do more research into the nations and eras and personalities you want to manipulate). The best AHs, to my opinion, are usually subtle affairs. World domination scenarios seldom play out realistically.

And, finally, the Hitler of the early '30s was far less unhinged than the Hitler of the mid '40s. Don't try to ascribe character traits that were a result of the megalomania and cult of personality he enjoyed for seven years when those things haven't had an impact on him.
 
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