What if, the Ottomans were on the side of the Allies in WWI? What would we need to change to make this feasible? Would Russia and Turkey be willing to fight alongside each other?
Allied Ottomans
- Thread starter DominusNovus
- Start date
Chris
Banned
Problem was a massive slight delivered to the turks by the british, which tipped the balance to the pro-german side, plus some VERY well founded suspiction that the allies were licking their lips and carving up the empire already.
Alter that and they might take part on the allied saide, although the point would be..?
Chris
Alter that and they might take part on the allied saide, although the point would be..?
Chris
"although the point would be..?"
If the Allies could ship arms to Russia via the Black Sea (avoiding the Baltic and the German High Seas Fleet altogether), it might have helped the Russian military out (they didn't train their men w/ guns b/c they didn't have any, and sent soldiers to the front unarmed, telling them to get rifles from the dead). Even this screwed-up, Russia could slap Austria-Hungary around...properly armed, they could have put up a better fight against Germany.
If the Allies could ship arms to Russia via the Black Sea (avoiding the Baltic and the German High Seas Fleet altogether), it might have helped the Russian military out (they didn't train their men w/ guns b/c they didn't have any, and sent soldiers to the front unarmed, telling them to get rifles from the dead). Even this screwed-up, Russia could slap Austria-Hungary around...properly armed, they could have put up a better fight against Germany.
One way to get the Ottomans involved in WWI on the side of the allies might be to have Italy join the Central powers in 1914, and then have Bulgaria join the Central Powers in 1915. The Ottomans had lost Libya and some islands in the Aegean to Italy in 1911, IIRC, and they had lost land in the Balkans to Bulgaria in the first Balkan war. They were able to take some of that land in Europe back when Bulgaria got into a brief war against Serbia and Greece, but getting more back would be even better.
Perhaps in 1915 when Bulgaria sends troops westward to assist in the conquest of Serbia, the Ottoman Empire suddenly joins the allies and attacks the thinly defended eastern part of Bulgaria? A force of Ottoman troops supported by smaller British and French forces attacks Italian-held Libya, aided by Muslim uprisings there, and makes short work of the isolated Italian garrison there?
Perhaps in 1915 when Bulgaria sends troops westward to assist in the conquest of Serbia, the Ottoman Empire suddenly joins the allies and attacks the thinly defended eastern part of Bulgaria? A force of Ottoman troops supported by smaller British and French forces attacks Italian-held Libya, aided by Muslim uprisings there, and makes short work of the isolated Italian garrison there?
Grey Wolf
Donor
Well, we are ignoring several things here - that since 1913 there has been a very influential German miulitary mission in the Ottoman Empire under Liman von Sanders, whose existence was aimed at making the empire pro-German and using that to exploit its strategic position. Also during early 1914, the Germans were attempting to bring about an Ottoman-Greek rapprochement - the details are in Albertini, and I have forgotten most of what I ever learnt, but it was a strategic goal. It tied into Austria-Hungary's courting of Bulgaria and was aimed at shackling Serbia, and replacing a Rumania increasingly viewed as unreliable. Added to that, Enver and ?Talat were pro-German and had already preliminarily committed the empire in August 1914.
The seizure of the dreadnoughts that would become Agincourt and Erin raised a mighty stink in Istanbul, whereas the arrival of the Goeben and the Breslau and their 'sale' to the Ottomans was an excellent propoganda coup for the Germans as they could be seen to be countering British seizure of ships by the provision of their own. Once Souchon was at Istanbul, the likelihood of the Ottoman Empire doing anything other than join the Central Powers becomes even smaller. He took virtual command of the joint fleet, and the bombardment of the Russian poets that brought Russia into the war was instigated by him without reference to all of the government in Istanbul.
A POD to have the Ottoman Empire remain neutral might be to have Troubridge engage Souchon - he may well lose his armoured cruisers, but if he can damage the Goeben she may never reach Istanbul, or might be caught by Milne as she limped away. This would be both a propoganda blow to the Germans, and remove an important impetus towards war. A neutral Ottoman Empire may then join the war on the ENTENTE side at a later date, depending on how things go elsewhere.
You might also want to kill the sultan. If you get rid of Mehmed in this period, Yusef Izzedin becomes sultan, and was a generally pro-Entente-minded man, believing increasingly that the Ottoman Empire's dalliance with Germany would lead to its ruin - hence his being 'suicided' in 1916 by Enver and co
Grey Wolf
The seizure of the dreadnoughts that would become Agincourt and Erin raised a mighty stink in Istanbul, whereas the arrival of the Goeben and the Breslau and their 'sale' to the Ottomans was an excellent propoganda coup for the Germans as they could be seen to be countering British seizure of ships by the provision of their own. Once Souchon was at Istanbul, the likelihood of the Ottoman Empire doing anything other than join the Central Powers becomes even smaller. He took virtual command of the joint fleet, and the bombardment of the Russian poets that brought Russia into the war was instigated by him without reference to all of the government in Istanbul.
A POD to have the Ottoman Empire remain neutral might be to have Troubridge engage Souchon - he may well lose his armoured cruisers, but if he can damage the Goeben she may never reach Istanbul, or might be caught by Milne as she limped away. This would be both a propoganda blow to the Germans, and remove an important impetus towards war. A neutral Ottoman Empire may then join the war on the ENTENTE side at a later date, depending on how things go elsewhere.
You might also want to kill the sultan. If you get rid of Mehmed in this period, Yusef Izzedin becomes sultan, and was a generally pro-Entente-minded man, believing increasingly that the Ottoman Empire's dalliance with Germany would lead to its ruin - hence his being 'suicided' in 1916 by Enver and co
Grey Wolf
Let those two ships be intercepted and let the British behave more pleasantly and the Ottomans might be allies. Better yet, let them learn of the intended carve up and pre-empt by joining the allies(after the two ships do not make it). Libya and parts of the Balkans would be a valuable prize to them, especially Rumelia for more room around Istanbul.
Question: Now that the Central Powers DO have something to offer Italy, does Italy remain true? Historically, they got little in the former Ottoman territory after WWI, and abandoned it very quickly. Might they still be bribed or could Italy enjoy the benefits of neutrality selling to both sides?
Question: Would this drive Greece into the Central Powers and if so, would the Ottomans and Allies be able to quickly handle Greece and Bulgaria, opening a joint front with Russia through Romania. How about if it's just Bulgaria still? What if BULGARIA decides not to enter the war?
Question: Now that the Central Powers DO have something to offer Italy, does Italy remain true? Historically, they got little in the former Ottoman territory after WWI, and abandoned it very quickly. Might they still be bribed or could Italy enjoy the benefits of neutrality selling to both sides?
Question: Would this drive Greece into the Central Powers and if so, would the Ottomans and Allies be able to quickly handle Greece and Bulgaria, opening a joint front with Russia through Romania. How about if it's just Bulgaria still? What if BULGARIA decides not to enter the war?