With a POD between 0 and 1900 CE, make paganism the most popular religion in the United States. The United States must still gain independence from a foreign power and be a democratic federal republic.
AH Challenge
- Thread starter Romulus Augustulus
- Start date
POD: Jesus isn't executed. Considering that His sacrifice is essential to Christianity, it probably wouldn't have spread that much if it didn't have the central message of His Resurrection.
Don't know where you would go from there, though. If you take Edward Gibbon's word for it, the reason the Roman Empire fell is because they converted to Christianity and began focusing on spiritual matters instead of earthly ones. He, of course, ignores several other factors, including climatic changes and increased lead content in food, contributing to chronic lead poisoning.
(Granted as a conservative Southern Baptist, I don't think that such a POD as Jesus not being executed would be possible.)
Don't know where you would go from there, though. If you take Edward Gibbon's word for it, the reason the Roman Empire fell is because they converted to Christianity and began focusing on spiritual matters instead of earthly ones. He, of course, ignores several other factors, including climatic changes and increased lead content in food, contributing to chronic lead poisoning.
(Granted as a conservative Southern Baptist, I don't think that such a POD as Jesus not being executed would be possible.)
Well, we could postulate His not being executed as an intellectual exercise, though we believe some version of Christ's Passion would occur anyway.
Or how about this--Christianity remains a small-to-medium religion.
Or how about this--Christianity remains a small-to-medium religion.
Thande
Donor
No, that's a dualist view like Manicheanism. Christianity is (well, this is the way I put it, others might disagree) more attempting to walk the straight line of 'how things should have been' while the Great Rebel and his servants try to bring you off it. Good is more powerful than evil, but evil is insidious and has no scruples. At the risk of sounding like Bush, think the US versus Al-Qaeda (not a great example because the US isn't perfect and even Al-Qaeda isn't monolithically evil, but you get the idea - a small rebel group can still do damage to a supremely powerful authority).
Grey Wolf
Donor
Thande said:
I think I sort of get the idea...
But cannot the pre-Christian righteous be saved ? Isn't that also doctrine that this happens ?
Thus, without the ultimate sacrifice it would still, one assumes, apply...
And Jesus would have to do something else if he doesn't go along with the crucifiction idea. Maybe he goes for temporal power and makes a temporary Gods kingdom on Earth to inspire future generations ?
Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf said:
Some teach that the pre-Christian "righteous" (the Israelites, as well as pre-Israelites like Noah and friends) existed in a sort of limbo (not hell, but not heaven either) until the death of Jesus, who led them all into heaven.
I believe the "harrowing of Hell" teaching is based on a verse in 2 Peter where it talks of Christ "preaching to the spirits in prison," which would probably take place between His death and Resurrection. Whether the "spirits in prison" referred to were only the "righteous dead" or all the pre-Christ dead in general is debatable.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Matt Quinn said:
Sheesh, there's more to Christianity than I was taught when I went to church - or maybe the Methodists/URC simplified it all ???
Anyway, if it relies on Jesus' actions for a definition then He gets to change this should he choose not to be crucified but do something else significant instead.
Grey Wolf
The Roman emperor Constantine never sees a meteorite that he thinks is a sign from God that he should become a christian and so he doesn't. Christianity never becomes the dominant religion of the Roman Empire. So, it doesn't become the dominant religion of Europe. Rest of history until independence day same as OTL.Romulus Augustulus said:
Thande
Donor
I'm with you on this one, Grey Wolf. I was brought up in the Church but didn't have the first clue what it was about until I lapsed into agnosticism in my teens and then came back of my own accord after reading a lot of in-depth theology. If there's a problem with modern (and ancient) Christianity it's that they spend so much time banging on about how great Jesus is that they never get around to telling you WHY you should be so thankful...but I digress.
Matt, that sounds similar to most of the views I've heard. Some say that when Jesus died he 'opened the gates to heaven', but I think a better metaphor would be 'opened the gates to hell, and thus let everyone out who could repent'. This is the sequence of events as far as I can see it:
Jesus crucified in accordance with God's Plan.
Although he himself is sinless, he freely accepts Mankind's sins and thus descends into hell.
Satan thinks he can overthrow or even destroy God because he has God-in-Man, the link tying God to the Earth. (Think Sauron and the Ring from Lord of the Rings, only good instead of evil).
However, what he fails to realise is that when he tries to do this, the reaction caused by the fact that Jesus is basically sinless causes Satan's direct power to be destroyed (think Voldemort from Harry Potter) and means that the condemned can escape hell if they repent (i.e., see that there is a heaven to go to and accept what they must do to get there) and the living on Earth who follow Jesus will 'never see death': in the Biblical languages 'death' often translates as 'going to hell' rather than what we would call death - which is what Christians usually mean when they say 'eternal life', i.e. in heaven.
There's a great image I've seen, from I think the sixteenth century, of Jesus dragging Adam (looking as though he had been tortured for millennia, and representing all of humanity) out of the Abyss of hell.
Then Jesus returns to earth - not sure whether his body is 'reanimated' or whether something entirely different happens - stays for a while to show the disciples how to spread the Word - and returns to heaven. Finally, now that Satan's direct power in the world has been destroyed, the Holy Spirit enters the equation and now God can help people directly rather than just through intermediaries as he did in the Old Testament.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Matt, that sounds similar to most of the views I've heard. Some say that when Jesus died he 'opened the gates to heaven', but I think a better metaphor would be 'opened the gates to hell, and thus let everyone out who could repent'. This is the sequence of events as far as I can see it:
Jesus crucified in accordance with God's Plan.
Although he himself is sinless, he freely accepts Mankind's sins and thus descends into hell.
Satan thinks he can overthrow or even destroy God because he has God-in-Man, the link tying God to the Earth. (Think Sauron and the Ring from Lord of the Rings, only good instead of evil).
However, what he fails to realise is that when he tries to do this, the reaction caused by the fact that Jesus is basically sinless causes Satan's direct power to be destroyed (think Voldemort from Harry Potter) and means that the condemned can escape hell if they repent (i.e., see that there is a heaven to go to and accept what they must do to get there) and the living on Earth who follow Jesus will 'never see death': in the Biblical languages 'death' often translates as 'going to hell' rather than what we would call death - which is what Christians usually mean when they say 'eternal life', i.e. in heaven.
There's a great image I've seen, from I think the sixteenth century, of Jesus dragging Adam (looking as though he had been tortured for millennia, and representing all of humanity) out of the Abyss of hell.
Then Jesus returns to earth - not sure whether his body is 'reanimated' or whether something entirely different happens - stays for a while to show the disciples how to spread the Word - and returns to heaven. Finally, now that Satan's direct power in the world has been destroyed, the Holy Spirit enters the equation and now God can help people directly rather than just through intermediaries as he did in the Old Testament.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Matt Quinn said:
The Book of Hebrews discusses this some -- saying that Abraham was "justified by faith," and that he is thus in Heaven. I've also heard theories about how, in the parable of Lazarus (the beggar, not the man Jesus raised from the dead) when it mentions the rich man looked up and saw Lazarus in "the bosom of Abraham" that it didn't just mean he was leaning on Abraham or sitting in his lap or something, but that the Bosom of Abraham was another realm entirely where the pre-Christian righteous went. I don't know. . . .shrugs . . .
Uhh...Could someone just brew up an AH? And there was Jesus...he was way exaggerated, though. Originally, he was just a reform-minded rabbi called Jeshua ben Joseph, crucified for sedition. By ancient world standards, perfectly reasonable.
csa945 said:
Did you know Jesus taught more on hell then anything else? Basicly hell is divided into two parts, one being a paradise, the other being...well sheloh. The effects of Jesus being exiled instead of crucified would be detremental to the Christian faith...maybe evening making it a philisophy instead. Extenslism would be butterflied out, along with Transendentalism, amoung others. Maybe Baal would come back as the main god of the reigon...or maybe Marduk...or one of the large Panthon of Roman Gods. (since they took in almost any god or goddess that they conquered.)