Whats the earliest airships could have been invented to a practical level, plausibly?
Airships
- Thread starter DominusNovus
- Start date
To do what? As demonstration devices, with little practical use.. right around 1800 or so. As useful for military scouting.. possibly about 1820-1830. As cargo vessels...possibly about 1850-1860...
As anything practical...possibly 1880...
As anything practical...possibly 1880...
Didn't they inflate the earliest ballons with the gas you get from pouring sulfuric acid onto zinc (I have no idea where I read that)? When did people first develop sulfuric acid? That'd be the earliest date for airships...
David S Poepoe
Banned
Well, there is some good indications that the Native Americans in Latin America, particularly in the region of the Nazca Plains, may have developed primitive hot air balloons.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
DuQuense said:
Steam engines would be WAYYYYYYYY too heavy for use on an airship. R101 had problems just using heavy-oil engines (safer for tropical travel) which were over twice the weight of regular petrol motors.
I think that airships were not really practicable until when they actually showed up. I do think they could have progressed much faster though - Zeppelin was very conservative and unscientific. You could probably see practical vessels around 1900 or so that could be used for scouting, and transport a couple of years later. This supposes some investment by a government - Zeppelin had to largely accomplish what he did with his own fortune.
Fearless Leader
Donor
?
IIRC the Napleonic forces used Hot Air balloons for observation purposes in the 1790's. Now WI some snipers had taken position on the balloons leading to a massive surge of balloon use in the French Army. Nappy falls in love with these elevated sniper platforms and tows them all around Europe. Everybody else sees this and so they begin sewing together balloon fleets of their own. Thus history is not changed. Later on one thing follows another at first we have crankshaft propelled airships during the Post Napoleonic period- early 1900's. After the invention of the ICE the airships are adapted to use this. So by WWI we would see the airforces of the combatants consist of various sizes of airships propelled by Internal Combustion Engines and armed with Congreve Rockets perhaps?
IIRC the Napleonic forces used Hot Air balloons for observation purposes in the 1790's. Now WI some snipers had taken position on the balloons leading to a massive surge of balloon use in the French Army. Nappy falls in love with these elevated sniper platforms and tows them all around Europe. Everybody else sees this and so they begin sewing together balloon fleets of their own. Thus history is not changed. Later on one thing follows another at first we have crankshaft propelled airships during the Post Napoleonic period- early 1900's. After the invention of the ICE the airships are adapted to use this. So by WWI we would see the airforces of the combatants consist of various sizes of airships propelled by Internal Combustion Engines and armed with Congreve Rockets perhaps?
Of Couse there was that Gallager show, where He ended the show flying around the auditorium on a pedal powered one man airship.
And I've seen Propeller powered lifeboats. were the passengers {row} with levers inside the boat.
It may be possible to make a human[squad of Soldiers] powered Airship [blimp] sometime in the early 1800's, It would be only for scouting purposes.
And I've seen Propeller powered lifeboats. were the passengers {row} with levers inside the boat.
It may be possible to make a human[squad of Soldiers] powered Airship [blimp] sometime in the early 1800's, It would be only for scouting purposes.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
DuQuense said:
This was tried but didn't provide enough motive force to give the airship any control. I really don't think you can have airships before the ICE. I suppose greater balloon power could lead to greater governmental investment in airships leading to more rapid development of airships. So, you could advance the whole thing by ten years and have it move far faster, so that by WWI you have some pretty impressive airships floating around, and a widespread network of passenger airships. I wonder if this would retard or advance the development of HTA? Probably advance it.
Also don't forget that the development of Dural (high-strength, light-weight aluminum alloy) was crucial to airship development as well, the wooden-framed Schutte-Lanz type being a dead-end.
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
An old John Toland popular history of airships ("Giants in the Sky" I believe it might have been called), has a chapter devoted to an 1860's airship supposedly invented by a US inventer which consisted of 3 cylindrical hydrogen-filled non-rigid balloons linked together to form a crude aerofoil. It was supposedly called the "Aeron" and achieved unpowered dirigibility by a combination of altering the vehicle's cg and lift so it would rise and descend in a predictible direction. The book makes it seem the Aeron was a big deal at the time and was successfuly demonstrated for the US army in the civil war. FYI, it gave its name to a series of small prototype three-hulled and lifting body powered airships built in the USA in the 1960's and 70's. Toland's book is the only semi-reputable source I've read on airships which even mentions the "Aeron", so I am suspicious it ever existed. To give Toland the benefit of doubt, he probably used sensationalistic - and probably false or exaggerated - popular press accounts and never considered they might be false.
I basically agree with AHP that truly effective airships require an efficient engine and lightweght alloy structures. However, had a mechanical or human-powered power system been developed in the 1700's or 1800's (cycle-powered blimps are marginally practical today - so there is no a priori reason the necessary gearing and propeller designs could not have been achieved), wooden strctures may have sufficied to provide craft which had at as much ability to navigate in good weather conditions as crude sailing vessels - especially if a longer history of balloon flight had improved people's understanding of atmospherics and how to find and use aerial currents. Who knows how the development of such craft in, say, the early 1800's might have helped speed up other associated dirigible technologies (or developed alternative technologies we never thought of)
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
zoomar said:
I think in that case, though, that they would not have been considered a worthwhile investment by militaries, and so would have been largely a crackpot adventurer sort of thing. And considering that attempting to control airships without engines is going to lead to some spectucular disasters, I'm not sure how far this would all go. Once again, it might very well accellerate airship development once the requisite technologies are developed, so this is a good thing.
Straha
Banned
Helium-filled transcontinental/ transoceanic dirigible service introduced 1935, becomes wildly successful. Consequences. Mass tourism takes off earlier. Easier and cheaper to cross the Atlantic. More American investment in Europe. Vice versa. Harder for the USA to stay so isolationist in WW2 Jet Aircraft develop quicker and larger in face of competition, from the drigables. More places can be served by air travel as blimb ports do not require the infrastructure investment than jet ports do. That still leaves freight. A Drigable can carry a lot then a jet aircraft, and I think could cross the Atlantic in maybe a day. Compared with arround a week for a ship. Add on board entertainment like a cross channel ferry and remembering this is pre ww2 the pace of life is slower. I think it is a serious option. It can also carry a lot more people, for a lot cheaper then an aircraft. Perhaps Blimp's become like Trains. Used in most parts of the world except the US.
Uses of lighter than air:
1. ASW - they have virtually unlimited loiter time
2. long range radar picket - loiter time
3. large scale cargo delivery to places not having heavy ports and
airfields - we persit in fighting wars on the Guadalcanals of the world.
4. priority cargo delivery not interdictable by submarine warfare
Uses of lighter than air:
1. ASW - they have virtually unlimited loiter time
2. long range radar picket - loiter time
3. large scale cargo delivery to places not having heavy ports and
airfields - we persit in fighting wars on the Guadalcanals of the world.
4. priority cargo delivery not interdictable by submarine warfare
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Straha said:
5. Tourism - airborne cruise ships
6. Efficient replacement for cell phone ground stations (can be used to cover a very large area and doubles as a huge billboard)
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Faeelin said:
Really big cruise ships have all that. And you couldn't fit any of that on a blimp - you would need a dirigible. Think of it as a small cruise ship. Imagine the views.
And don't ever contradict me again.
I think airship cruise ships (even big rigids) would occupy (and create) a niche different from contemporary cruise ships. With fairly small passenger capacities (100-200 people max) they would have to combine unheard-of luxury in the air with flights over partricularly scenic vistas (Faeelin is right, looking down at an endless expanse of sea from 500 meters would not be many folks' cup of tea. I would think about the equivalent of Danube cruises or even limited 1-2 day sightseeing/gambling flights around major cities in floating casinos as something that might work for big rigids, maybe. The success of the Zeppelin NT and other smaller ships in the local sighteeing market suggests that the only possibly viable use of commercial airships would be for small multi use (advertising, sightseeing) purposes.
Straha:
Even though I am a great fan of airships (particularly zeppelin rigids) I have a hard time imagining them fullfilling any civilian/comerical function except in niches. Even if the development of planes had been retarded and/or airships invented earlier, you still have the basic problem that it takes an awfully big structure and lots of lifting gas to move a fairly limited amount of people and goods. Hindenburg, over 800 feet long and requiring a crew of about 50 people, could only carry a maximum of about 60 paying passengers in its normally luxurious manner. You could probably tear out the interior partitions and cram 300-400 people and their luggage in with lawnchairs and box lunches instead of staterooms, pianos, and fine dining, but who would want to take 3 days to cross the Atlantic in acomodations no better than a 3nd class Indian train. If airships dominated the skys, probably 90% of people would travel in ocean liners and trains - commercial air travel using airships would probably be used either for sightseeing or special and expensive long range intercontinental freight or passenger travel when the difference between 30kts and 90kts really mattered (sort of like the Concorde) - and you'd have to be REALLY rich to afford it.
I suspect the principal uses of large airships would be military - as naval scouts, fast transports, and any other tasks where long range and (particularly) the ability to stay on station in the air for several days to a week is needed.
Straha:
Even though I am a great fan of airships (particularly zeppelin rigids) I have a hard time imagining them fullfilling any civilian/comerical function except in niches. Even if the development of planes had been retarded and/or airships invented earlier, you still have the basic problem that it takes an awfully big structure and lots of lifting gas to move a fairly limited amount of people and goods. Hindenburg, over 800 feet long and requiring a crew of about 50 people, could only carry a maximum of about 60 paying passengers in its normally luxurious manner. You could probably tear out the interior partitions and cram 300-400 people and their luggage in with lawnchairs and box lunches instead of staterooms, pianos, and fine dining, but who would want to take 3 days to cross the Atlantic in acomodations no better than a 3nd class Indian train. If airships dominated the skys, probably 90% of people would travel in ocean liners and trains - commercial air travel using airships would probably be used either for sightseeing or special and expensive long range intercontinental freight or passenger travel when the difference between 30kts and 90kts really mattered (sort of like the Concorde) - and you'd have to be REALLY rich to afford it.
I suspect the principal uses of large airships would be military - as naval scouts, fast transports, and any other tasks where long range and (particularly) the ability to stay on station in the air for several days to a week is needed.
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MattRice said:
I believe there were several threads about this on the old board.
If, hypothetically, airships were an established and economically viable means of transporting people and goods before airplanes were invented (let's say the first planes fly in 1919, after rigid airships already have the capabiliy of reliably operating in most weather conditions, are providing short and long range commercial service, and function as long-range military/naval tansports or scouts, I think it is entirely possible the airplane industry as we know it today might never has evolved. Huge corporate investments in Europe, Japan, and the US would have been made in the infrastructure supporting a massive airship industry: helium (or hydrogen) extraction and distribution networks, massve fabrication plants, light low-RPM fuel efficient engines suitable for airships, research establishments, military doctrine, airlines, hangars and maintenance facilities, advertising/marketing, freight systems, etc. These interests would have little desire to put money or effort behind small, unsafe contraptions with no commercial value. Airplanes might have remained essentially toys and playthings - somewhat like gliders and hot-air balloons are today are today.