How do you stop the Mongols?
- Thread starter Faeelin
- Start date
Dunash
Banned
Himmler & Hitler made much of the "Judische-Asiatische Racengemisch mit Mongolische-Negroistische einschlagen" - "The Jewish-Asiatic Racemix with Mongolian-Negroidal Admixtures". Yet it is clear from their hair, eyes & physiognomies that they themselves had Mongolian-Hun-Vandal-Visigoth blood in them going back 1000 years!
very relevant.
Assuming they can't create field forces to match the Mongols their best bet would probably be to develop extensive fortifications (towns and castles) to limit MOngol freedom of movement and provide a refuge. Mongol armies probably could operate in Germany but, for various climactic and organisational reasons recently discussed in anopther thread, probably couldn't do so for long and therefore couldn't subdue large numbers of walled towns etc.
Assuming they can't create field forces to match the Mongols their best bet would probably be to develop extensive fortifications (towns and castles) to limit MOngol freedom of movement and provide a refuge. Mongol armies probably could operate in Germany but, for various climactic and organisational reasons recently discussed in anopther thread, probably couldn't do so for long and therefore couldn't subdue large numbers of walled towns etc.
Faeelin said:
yeah . . . while I don't know enough to say for sure it's not true I'd be incredibly surprised if it was, you geberally didn't get "Constantinoplian" Walls outside, . . . well, Constantinople.
The MOngols had good seige tacticss, but that's not really the point. It would still take time to raze large numbers of fortresses and time is something a Mongol style army wouldn't have in Germany, certainly not in the face of a scorched earth policy.
The alternative is to create an equivalent mobile force and go on the offensive, but how practical was this? IIRC only the Mamluks ever managed to fight the Mongols on their own terms and win.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Spies, sabouteurs and Agents Provocateur. Good looking girls to seduce their leaders and set them up for assassination raids. Merchants to sell them poisoned food and report on their movements. Princes who come over but are really planting seeds of discord among factions. All the dirty tricks that the Age of Chivalry is famous for.
This area had about the worst armies of all the very bad European armies in this unfortunate time but about a thousand years of experience with down and dirty interdynastic warfare. They also had extensive contact with the Byzantines and so more than a little familiarity with...uh..'Byzantine' Machinations. Its important to play to your strengths when you have very few of them.
This area had about the worst armies of all the very bad European armies in this unfortunate time but about a thousand years of experience with down and dirty interdynastic warfare. They also had extensive contact with the Byzantines and so more than a little familiarity with...uh..'Byzantine' Machinations. Its important to play to your strengths when you have very few of them.
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See Carpini's views on anti-Mongol tactics at http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/SOURCES/carpini.htm
Look into the 10th-century German fortification program against the Magyar raids.
Hire the Hungarian and Cuman refugees who come flooding into Germany ahead of the Mongols, and use them as mercenary light horse.
Look into the 10th-century German fortification program against the Magyar raids.
Hire the Hungarian and Cuman refugees who come flooding into Germany ahead of the Mongols, and use them as mercenary light horse.
Flocculencio
Donor
What if they built a really big wall?
No...on second thought its been tried. Didn't work
[SouthPark] "Goddamn Mongolians! Every time Chinese try to build city wall, goddamn Mongolians try to break it down!!"[/SouthPark]
Seriously though, as Matthew Craw said, wouldn't a sizeable network of fortresses serve to delay the Mongols and deny them the advantage of mobility.
Warning: off the cuff, unsubstantiated argument ahead
This would be a defense in depth strategy where the fortresses rely on each other for support. This way the Mongols would be bounced around the fortress network, never really able to make any sizeable gains.
Of course this would take a level of cooperation and coordination that I doubt Germany was up to achieving but maybe it would work?
No...on second thought its been tried. Didn't work
[SouthPark] "Goddamn Mongolians! Every time Chinese try to build city wall, goddamn Mongolians try to break it down!!"[/SouthPark]
Seriously though, as Matthew Craw said, wouldn't a sizeable network of fortresses serve to delay the Mongols and deny them the advantage of mobility.
Warning: off the cuff, unsubstantiated argument ahead
This would be a defense in depth strategy where the fortresses rely on each other for support. This way the Mongols would be bounced around the fortress network, never really able to make any sizeable gains.
Of course this would take a level of cooperation and coordination that I doubt Germany was up to achieving but maybe it would work?
War wagons ?
This goes back to my previous post on the Hussite war wagons: WI the Germans and central eastern Europeans employed similar mobile fortifications as a means of countering the Mongol hordes on their Mongolian ponies ? Combined with light cavalry of some description ? WI the lessons of the Crusades had been somehow applied in European armies, leading to the formation of outfits comprising lightly-armoured and armed horsemen similar to the Saracen mounted archers ?
This goes back to my previous post on the Hussite war wagons: WI the Germans and central eastern Europeans employed similar mobile fortifications as a means of countering the Mongol hordes on their Mongolian ponies ? Combined with light cavalry of some description ? WI the lessons of the Crusades had been somehow applied in European armies, leading to the formation of outfits comprising lightly-armoured and armed horsemen similar to the Saracen mounted archers ?
Grey Wolf
Donor
There's a difference between settled Mongols raiding and the Mongol armies of conquest
The model for resisting raids by a settled Mongol successor state (as stated in the POD) is Muscovy and its need to defend against incessant raiding by the Tatars (Khanate of the Golden Horde)
I studied this in great depth for my degree, but unfortunately that was over a dozen years ago and my memory is deteriorated ! But the essential point is a network of fortresses. Forget about walls or ditches, but focus on the strongholds. If the raiders come near you can engage them. If they by-pass you you can cut them off on their return and destroy them. That kind of thing
Grey Wolf
The model for resisting raids by a settled Mongol successor state (as stated in the POD) is Muscovy and its need to defend against incessant raiding by the Tatars (Khanate of the Golden Horde)
I studied this in great depth for my degree, but unfortunately that was over a dozen years ago and my memory is deteriorated ! But the essential point is a network of fortresses. Forget about walls or ditches, but focus on the strongholds. If the raiders come near you can engage them. If they by-pass you you can cut them off on their return and destroy them. That kind of thing
Grey Wolf
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Grey Wolf said:
Yes, the Byzantines had an extremely successful system for dealing with this. Locally recruited and based troops help a lot, too. An important factor is that the Mongols were essentially bullies. Sustained and effective opposition made them turn awy towards easier prey. The Mamelukes smacked them but good, and thus were spared the fate of the rest of the Mid East.